Targeted: LGBTQ+ lives lost in South London

In this episode Han takes us through three tragic stories of LGBTQ+ individuals who faced violence and hate in South London, including both solved and unsolved cases. We uncover the lives behind the headlines, the struggles for justice and the harsh realities of hate crimes in our community.

We'll cover the cases of Jacob Bornkamp, Geoffrey Windsor and Jody Dobrowski.

But it's not all murder and heartache. Expect the usual mix of random ramblings and...Han wasn't lying when she said this one would be tricky to write a description for...

Sources include
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/england-jacob-jaap-bornkamp-52-murdered-walking-home-deptford-south-london-4-jun-2000.561546/ 

https://www.truecrimeedition.com/post/jaap-bornkamp 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/royal-florists-brutal-cold-case-23619708 

https://crimeimmemorial.com/2024/07/26/geoffrey-windsor/ 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2081712.stm 

https://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/news/1400779.homophobia-hampered-gay-murder-probe/ 

https://172430notohatecrime.wordpress.com/2012/08/05/geoffrey-windsor-victim-of-hate-crime-26-june-2002/ 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jody_Dobrowski 

https://www.lgbthistoryuk.org/wiki/Jody_Dobrowski   

https://bestofsouthwestldn.com/remembering-jody-dobrowski/  

https://claphamcommon.info/a-life-brutally-cut-short/  

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5087286.stm  

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/jun/17/gayrights.ukcrime 

https://www.stroudnewsandjournal.co.uk/news/1033554.brave-mum-honoured-for-stance-on-gay-rights/ 

Thanks for tuning in! If you loved diving into the dark corners of South London with us, don't forget to hit that subscribe button to never miss an episode of "Sinister South."

Also, follow us on Instagram @SinisterSouthPodcast for sneak peeks, behind-the-scenes content, and more cheeky banter, or www.sinistersouthpod.co.uk. Remember, every crime tells a story... and South is the best side of the river...

Produced and hosted by Hannah Williams & Rachel Baines
Mixed & edited by Purple Waves Sound (A.K.A Will)

Transcript

Jody, Jaap and Geoffrey

Hello. Hi, I'm Rachel. I'm Hannah.

And this is the Sinister Self podcast, a podcast all about the untoward, the menacing, the malicious, and the macabre that happens in South London. Oh, someone's been practicing. I, no.

I did not do synonyms of nefarious before you arrived. Amazing. But we're getting there.

How are you, my love? I'm good. I am better. Good.

I'm in a much better headspace, I think. Love it. I think.

Hit my face with the mic. There we go. Yeah, it's all busy and mad and I'm Hannah with three jobs, but that's fine.

Four if you count this, and I do. You do. Yeah, but good.

I don't know how much I can say. I don't know if anyone at new job in new job world is ever going to listen because it is on my CV. So I don't want to be like, well, I've had my first couple of weeks, guys, and they're all pricks or anything like that.

But yeah, it's nice to be useful. Love it. And vital and valued.

You have always been useful, vital and valued to me, my darling. But yeah, I'm very glad. I'm very glad that you're enjoying it.

Thank you. That's cool. But yeah, but apart from that, we're just hurtling towards the C word.

And that is really exciting for me. I'm not gonna be one of these naysayers. I cannot wait.

I want to put my tree up. Well, you can surely soon. Like, when do you put your tree up? Are you a first of December person or? Realistically, it does.

You know, yeah, it should be the first of December. I mean, I always try and do it. It's usually like the first weekend of December.

Like when I've got some time to actually bother to do it. And I am the same as you. I'm an absolute child for Christmas.

Love it. Have to have Halloween first. Well, that's it.

Right. But we've had that now. Exactly.

So now it's fine. We can get excited about Christmas. Although we had bonfire now recently.

Yeah. Fireworks. Did you take any more photos of your face? Of my face? Of your face.

Did you take any more photos of your face? For those of you who have no idea what I'm talking about, it's a callback to a previous episode where Hannah was at the wrestling trying to take a lovely photo of the fireworks. A video. A video of fireworks.

And instead videoed her face. Angry. Angry face.

Yeah, all good. All good. All good.

All good. Before I ask you how you are, because I'm not like you and I will do that. But before I get there, I must just say, look, I've been listening back to our episodes, obviously.

Right. I know I've made some noises. Oh mate, same.

What the fuck do we do? I'm like. All the time. Shut up.

Mate, I'm the person who cackles continuously. Or there was an episode where I actually said to Will, you're going to have, I think it was Sally Shepard. It was Sally Shepard.

And you start talking about the fact that the A20 or the A2 or something runs through. And like, so how easy would it be to get to Peckham if you're in the A2? And the whole time you're speaking, I literally go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And at one point, I think at one point I gave you a look.

You probably did. But I also listened back to it and Will was like, well, I can't take them out because you're saying yeah over the top of Hannah speaking. So I was like, well, you just have to, you're just going to have to turn me down.

So he just turned me down as low as he could possibly get. Yeah. And really, really faintly in the background.

And the neigh. Well, the neigh obviously is legendary, but that's fine. But yeah, I'm going to make a, well, it's different when it's my case.

When it's my case, it's fine. When it's your cases, I'm just in the background. Shut up.

I just snorted then. They probably picked that up. And they, they, the microphone guards.

Yeah, no, we do. We do make some funny noises. I just don't know how no one puts up with it.

I wouldn't. But anyway, how are you? How am I? I'm all right, mate. I'm all right.

As you say, like Christmases are coming. There's lots of planning of shit. Although this year I'm quite excited because I'm actually going to my parents for Christmas Day.

I haven't done that in about six years. Nice. So it's because the mother-in-law and the sister-in-law are swanning off over to Barbados or somewhere of that ilk.

Of course. Well, you know, mother-in-law is mad. Yes.

Mother-in-law is mad, but in the best possible way. And she sails the Atlantic just for fun, which I just find absolutely bloody bonkers. It's like this is the woman who also like has had cataract surgery recently, but is still going to go get on a sailboat for a couple of months or however long it bloody takes.

She'll be great. But yeah, but she did it a couple of years ago. I think it was just before Covid was the last time.

Maybe she's done it since. I don't remember. But she did it a couple of years ago and immediately flew back.

So sailed across the Atlantic, got to somewhere lovely and sunny, went, oh, this is nice, and then flew home for Christmas. Oh, I see. So this year she was like, I'd quite like to actually see the place that I've spent however long sailing to.

Yeah. So she's, so yeah, they're having Christmas over there. So we're going to my parents.

Nice. Yeah. Oh, that'll be cute.

Yeah, it'll be good. It will be nice. She did say we could go and have Christmas with them over there.

But I was like, that means I've got to take the kids. I mean, Barbados. I know.

But with the children. With the children. So maybe another time.

Fair play, mate. Fair play. But no, otherwise, otherwise, all good.

All good. I'm pleased. The world is turning.

And that is the best we can hope for. Yeah. The world keeps turning.

We keep keeping on. We keep keeping on. Yeah, that's it.

Right. Exactly. Exactly.

You've got a story for me. Yeah, I have. Is it a good one? You won't tell me anything about it.

Well, only because I've gone out on a... I haven't gone out on a limb. You'll see what I mean. I just... Yeah.

I don't know how to describe it, which is going to make the promotion of this episode and the social media and all of that shit really difficult. So you've basically just given me a challenge. That's what you've done? No, it'll all come together.

Like, once we can... Once you know what I'm talking about, you'll see it and you'll be like, oh, right, well, I'll just call it that. Like, that's fine. Because just for full disclosure, so whenever we record these, obviously we use a recording program called Reaper.

And in it, I always have to name them because otherwise my husband will just go, I don't know what fucking episode it is. Give me the name of it. And so I was like, Hannah, who are you doing? And she was like, I'm not telling you.

Oh, okay. No, there are three names. I'll just give you their first names.

No, I did give you all three full names. You did? You just didn't give a shit because you hate victims. I just got very confused.

I was just like, what is happening? Why can't you tell me the name? But I'm excited to see. It's not that I can't. Yeah, it's just I've done things a bit differently.

Okay, I'm excited. I'm comfy. I've got my feet up.

Here we go. Shall I get on with it? Yeah, go for it. Okay, here we go.

There will be quite a few references. They will all be in the show notes. And there are trigger warnings for lots of different things.

Okay. And this, yeah, they'll kind of become apparent in the opening part. And then I'll warn you again, maybe if I remember.

Okay, cool. Sounds good. So, in the early 2000s, the LGBTQ plus community experienced both progress and significant challenge.

During this time, openly gay individuals faced a mix of emerging acceptance and persistent hostility. While legal advancements were slowly being made, like the landmark legal change of equalization of the age of consent in 2001, bringing the age of consent for gay men down to 16, aligning with that for heterosexuals, societal attitudes kind of lagged behind. For many, South London was home to a thriving and diverse culture where people could find support and community.

However, outside of these safe zones, prejudice, verbal abuse, and even violence were still very common. Homophobic views remained entrenched in certain parts of society, manifesting in violent hate crimes that targeted people based solely on their sexual orientation. Openly gay men, in particular, were often caught between these two worlds, the more accepting parts of South London and areas where they faced real and significant threats to their safety.

While pride marches, advocacy campaigns, and legal protections began to reshape the landscape, it was clear that daily life for many individuals was far from safe. Certain areas of South London became known for cruising, which is the act of seeking out sexual encounters in public places, serving as informal but vital meeting places for gay men. Locations such as Clapham Common, Dulwich Woods, and the areas around Kennington Park became recognised as sites where men could discreetly meet others like themselves.

Also, just a side note, I believe we should now be referring to cruising locations as a public sex environment, or PSE, which is a public place recognised by the police as being used for sex. It includes both cruising grounds for gay sex and places used for heterosexual dogging. So there's, I think, a more all-encompassing terminology for it now.

But it's still, it doesn't matter, it's still, like, you're not allowed to do it, really, are you? If the police found you, they would have a word. I don't think you'd get thrown in prison, but... Fair, we'll see. However, and crucially, hate crime statistics from this period of time showed a troubling rise in homophobic attacks.

Reports of anti-gay violence in South London spiked, especially in places known for being gay-friendly, like Clapham and Brixton. These areas, while home to LGBTQ plus venues and communities, were also the scenes of brutal hate crimes. Individuals were often targeted simply for existing visibly in public spaces, with attacks ranging from verbal harassment to physical violence.

The police response to these crimes was a contentious issue at the time. While there were dedicated liaison officers in some parts of London, the relationship between the police and the LGBTQ plus community was often strained. In many cases, victims felt that their concerns were dismissed or not taken seriously.

The reluctance of some gay men to report the attacks was linked to a historical mistrust of law enforcement, exasperated by incidents where police had raided or patrolled cruising areas. These actions, while sometimes intended to prevent crime, often left gay men feeling even more vulnerable. So, why am I telling you all this? I wanted to do something slightly different this week.

I was thinking about the Halloween episode and how, whilst maintaining the vitality of each story, we were also able to talk about cases where there might not have been enough publicly available information to us to build an entire hour-long episode. There have been a few times we've faced this issue, and have either had to reference a case in relation to something or someone else, where possible, or have had to put the name to the bottom of our lists, so that, well, we can keep checking for information. We get on with a myriad of other cases we want to cover, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, for today's episode, I want to talk about three cases of violent, homophobic and abhorrent crime, namely the murders of Jodie Dobrowolski, Jap Bornkamp and Geoffrey Windsor. I will state now, this episode was going to be solely about Jodie, and there is a lot of information about Jodie's death. However, it was during researching Jodie's case that I came across Jap and Geoffrey, and just, well, I couldn't let it go.

Yeah, fair. So, they're here too, and they haven't been forgotten. I will caveat now.

I know that there will be huge amounts of history and campaigning and pure, determined fighting for justice that I simply won't have covered. The topic is vast and painful for so many. I want to be respectful.

I want to report on the crimes I've mentioned, and I want to continue to educate myself. I will apologise if I haven't done enough yet, but please note, I'll never stop wanting to learn. Hear, hear.

So, we're going to go in chronological order, and I'm not quite sure how I'll jump from one to another, but we'll cross that bridge as we get to it. Exactly. No, I like it.

So, we're going to start with the horrendous murder of Jacob Bornkamp. Jacob was known as Jap. So, Jap was born in the Netherlands, but moved to London in 1967 at the age of 19 to chase his passion for floristry.

His talent quickly became evident as he secured a position with the prestigious Paulbrook & Gould, a renowned floral company, whose clients included British aristocracy and political figures such as Margaret Thatcher. Jap's exceptional work elevated him to great heights, ultimately leading him to design floral arrangements for the royal family. His most public achievement came in 1997, when his flower arrangements adorned Westminster Abbey during Princess Diana's funeral.

Wow, okay. Jap's professional success was complemented by his personal life. He met Danny O'Neill when he was in his 30s, and the two built a life together in London.

Their shared passion for floristry led them to open up their own floral business. Despite societal pressures, Jap and Danny built a strong partnership during a time when same-sex relationships were still heavily stigmatised. However, on June 4th 2000, Jap was murdered in a brutal, unprovoked knife attack, which was widely believed to be motivated by pure homophobia, in Newcross, South London.

The night before his death, Jap Bornkamp and his friend Richard Coakley had dinner together before heading to a sauna in Deptford, South London. They stayed out later than expected, and were walking home along Newcross Road near Deptford Town Hall at around 7.15am on Sunday, when they encountered two white men in their 20s. They were attacked, and although Richard thankfully survived, Jap died shortly after in Lewisham Hospital.

During a 2001 inquest, Richard recalled feeling Jap's arm jerk before he collapsed. One of the men had stabbed Jap in the chest, severing an artery that led to his heart. An elderly man had tried to assist, but he was never identified.

A white vehicle that had slowed down to allow the suspects to cross the road was also never traced. CCTV footage captured two potential witnesses, a cyclist and a pedestrian. They were never tracked.

The suspects were also seen on CCTV, and although the footage was later enhanced by NASA scientists, a positive identification was never made. Two men aged 23 and 30 from the Catford area were arrested but not charged. Police recovered the knife believed to have been used in the attack, which had a spider design on the handle, from a nearby bin.

However, it remains unclear whether the police obtained DNA from the weapon, or when it was last checked against the crime database. Billboards featuring the suspects were displayed locally, and detectives interviewed 400 people and travelled to the Netherlands as part of their investigation. However, the case remains unsolved.

Fucking hell. Jap's murder became more than just a tragic event for those who knew him. It cataly... cataly... Catalyzed? Yep.

Thank you. I was doing so well, being very professional. You're being very good, mate.

Very good. I can't say cunt in there. It catalyzed significant changes in UK laws concerning LGBTQ plus rights.

At the time, same-sex partners were not entitled to compensation through the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority. What? This exclusion was devastating for Jap's partner Danny, who had spent 20 years with the man. Yeah.

In response to this injustice, Danny wrote to then Prime Minister Tony Blair, petitioning him to change the CICA rules. His letter highlighted the glaring discrepancy between how heterosexual and homosexual couples were treated under the law. To Danny's amazement, Mr Blair replied, saying he would look into changing the law.

So the LGBT rights charity Stonewall was already campaigning, following the bombing of the Admiral Duncan pub in Soho in 1999, where the husband of a pregnant woman was allowed to apply for compensation, but partners of gay men who died weren't. Yeah. That's one that we'll probably end up covering at some point, I reckon.

Even though that's Soho, but it started, it's all linked into other things south of the river. Stonewall approached Danny and said they would like to use Jap's case as a further example of hypocrisy. It worked, and in 2001 CICA rules were changed to allow LGBTQ plus partners to apply.

Good. So Jap was described as flamboyant and fun. Jacob, Jap's nephew, Hilgert Boss, visited him in London numerous times and still hopes justice will prevail.

He says, and I quote, I just hope someone will finally come forward. You can never really close the book on something like that. I really feel like his killer could surface after 20 or 30 years.

What upsets me most is just, is there was just no motive, no real motive. Why would someone be on the streets with a knife like that? Jap loved London. One of the reasons he moved to London at the time, one of the reasons he moved to London was that at the time it was the gay capital of the world, much more liberal and open than Dutch society was.

Uncle Jap liked ballet, the opera and musicals. I remember attending a musical in the West End with him and Danny and then would go for food. They were fun times.

When I visited, I usually went with a friend. The four of us would go for dinner, then watch a film on the sofa and have a chat and drinks. On weekend evenings, Jap and Daniel would go clubbing and I would go with my friend to a different club.

Once we asked Jap if we could join them at their party, but he joked, it's much too gay for you guys. He was extravagant. He once picked us up at the airport wearing snake leather boots, camo trousers and a big white fur coat.

Oh, I love it. But also when you see a picture of him, he is so not what you'd expect to do that kind of... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uncle Jap was not your regular florist.

He used to do big weddings in the Middle East and I remember visiting once and there were 28 foot palm trees in his workshop made of stacked pineapples and banana leaves. Oh my God. So Jap Bornkamp was buried at Beckenham Cemetery in crematorium.

His grave is marked by a huge stone Great Dane, a tribute to the dogs Ben and Sam he and Danny O'Neill cherished during their life together. Oh, that's just awful. I know, I know.

The description of him arriving at the airport, it feels very Ken from the Barbie movie. I still haven't seen that, but anyway. Oh my God.

I know, I'm a really good ally. It sounds very Ken from the Barbie movie, which I love. But then also just find it quite interesting to... I'm really surprised you didn't just say it sounds like me because that sounds like an exact outfit I own.

Oh yeah, a thousand percent it does. A million times. It does.

But no, the other thing I was going to say was it's quite interesting to hear someone say that London was more... Accepting. ...than the Netherlands. And if you kind of think about... But think we'd had the 90s, right? Yeah, true.

All of this is early 2000s, right? Yeah, yeah. So we'd had the 90s, we'd had that big kind of change, somewhat big change in perceptions and... Yeah, true. I just sort of think about Holland now and like... Specifically like Amsterdam, obviously, that's where everyone's brain goes, I would reckon.

But just sort of the idea of it being slightly more closed minded just feels baffling. But then just because you're liberal in some aspects doesn't mean you're liberal in all. True, very true, very true.

Necessarily. I'm not saying that Amsterdam... I'm not saying the Dutch aren't very liberal in all of their aspects. I don't know, I didn't research it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, fair, fair, fair. So they think it was a homophobic crime. So Richard that survived, all he could really say was it was two white men.

Right. He thought they were in their 20s, that they were quite young. Right.

And he believed it to be a homophobic. There's no... I couldn't find any quotes from him on whether they said anything to them or anything like that. But it was kind of quickly assumed it was because... So they were walking back from a sauna together.

It was because there were two men walking together even though they weren't partners. Yeah. But from what I could deduce, and again this is a bit of an assumption-based situation because this is why it's in these things, right? Yeah.

This is why I'm doing this episode like this, sorry, I should say. Because there isn't loads and loads of information. So yeah, I think, again, I think they were both quite camp.

So potentially... Yeah, because otherwise I was going to say it seems really weird that it's two men walking along the street together but their attackers are two men. And you're kind of a bit like, well, if it was, if you're triggered by the fact that there's... Because it wasn't, they hadn't really got that far from where they were. So it might have been that they've seen where they've come, right.

And stuff like that. Okay, fine. I just can't believe, you know, like, the thing that stuck out to me was that the old man that tried to intervene never came forward, was never identified.

You know, the cyclist, the pedestrian, the car that slowed down, or the van, was it a car or a van, sorry? White car. It was a white car, that slowed down to allow the perpetrators to cross the road. I just, it just screams to me, and sorry police, but it just makes me go, well, they just didn't bother then, did they? No one gives a shit, right? They didn't, like, because you, if you've got a white car that's caught on CCTV, I would imagine that there's probably, and on that part of it, if it's slowed right the way down to let someone cross, there's a good chance that you will have seen a license plate.

So there's a good chance that you'll be able to then go and find who owns that car. Oh, we just haven't bothered to do that. I don't know whether the CCTV is just really poor, because again, think of the time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It just does seem very much like someone's gone, meh, meh. It's a bit like when Jeffrey Dahmer, and he's one of the guys who escaped from him, and they ran into police officers, and then Jeffrey Dahmer was like, oh no, he's my boyfriend, and the police were just like, oh, well, it's gay business.

Let them, let them go. Bye bye. It just almost feels a bit like they've just gone, oh, well.

That's a shame. Moving on. I was just going to, there's rubbish for the listeners, so that's great.

I'm doing really good. But I was just saying, I've got one of the reference links has the pictures of the CCTV stills, and I was just going to show you them. Yeah.

But you can look in your own time. Okay. Okay.

I've got an episode to record. Yeah, true. Sorry, I'll stop.

But yeah, and like Dan, he never kind of, he never stopped talking about Jap as well, and yeah, he was very loved. Yeah. Very loved man.

And thought of fondly. Yeah. Oh, bless him.

So now I'm moving on to the next case, which is that of Jeffrey Windsor. There was a lot less. Oh, really? Okay.

About this. So I'm really sorry if it feels gratuitous, because it's mainly about the crime. Yeah.

But there we go. And also because of where all these things happen, we're doing this podcast, like if anybody knows these names and knows any more, like I don't write this and then never give a shit about it ever again. Like if anybody knows any more, I'd be fascinated to hear more.

And especially like about who Jeffrey was. Yeah. Because that there's bits, but doesn't seem to be tons of stuff out there about him.

That is the thing that I found really interesting about doing this podcast in general, is that like, I don't know, I listened to loads of true crime podcasts, and I don't know if it's just the data protection laws or whatever in the States, but whenever you listen to American episodes of true crime stuff, there does seem to be people are able to find out things like, oh, where did they go to school? And who was this? And who was that? It's really hard with any of the cases. A lot of public records are much more exactly that, a lot much more public in the States. Yeah, exactly.

Also, and I read something ages ago about this, the kind of, I hate to use the word journalistic, because it feels like I'm putting myself in that thing, but the journalistic integrity in the States is different. And how many viable, verifiable sources and et cetera. And also they have, I think, a lot more free reign on assumptive reporting.

Creative license. Exactly. He was fun and friendly and flamboyant.

Because he probably was. Or she was beautiful and vivacious. Probably was, but you don't, who's going to really challenge you on that either? True.

And I find that really difficult. Yeah. In all of the cases, because I'm like, I read it one place and it seems anecdotal.

And I'm like, oh, I can't really. Yeah. At least if we do say any of it, then it's always like, well, I only found this in one place, so you could take this with a pinch of salt.

Yeah, exactly. But yeah, but it goes back to the Bermondsey horror, doesn't it? Like they sat drinking whiskey all night. Did they? How would you bloody know, big brother? He was walking along thinking to himself, I might have a cup of tea when I get home.

Yeah. Shut up. I miss the Bermondsey horror.

I might listen to that one again. The Bermondsey horror is a good one. I loved that episode.

It was a very good one. Right. So tell me about Geoffrey.

So yeah, 57 year old Geoffrey Windsor, a resident of South Norwood Hill in Southeast London, was known for his intelligence, musical talent and passion for trains, which earned him the description of a railway buff from his family. Nice. That is a verifiable quote.

I feel like him and Will would get on. That's from Mr. TFL. Yeah.

Yeah. In the early hours of June 26th, 2002, Geoffrey's body was tragically discovered by a passerby in Beulah Heights Park, South Norwood. He had been brutally beaten to death with a car aerial, which was found broken in half at the scene.

The park's reputation as a PSE area led authorities to suspect that Geoffrey's murder may have been motivated by homophobia. Geoffrey's wallet was also missing from the scene. Right.

A distinctive 14 carat white and yellow gold ring set with large diamonds was recovered near Geoffrey's body. Police believed it belonged to the killer and released photos of the ring, hoping it would help to identify them. Detective Chief Inspector Brian Haynes, who led the investigation, urged people to come forward, including 10 to 15 people believed to have been in the park at or around the time of the attack.

Right. Geoffrey had suffered head injuries, but a post-mortem failed to establish the exact cause of death. What? The investigation into Windsor's murder was part of a broader critique of the way homophobic crimes were handled by the police, with claims of institutional homophobia hampering proper investigations into such attacks.

A report produced by the independent lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender advisory group, published in 2007, studied how detectives handled 10 murders of gay men or transsexuals, including the unsolved killing of Geoffrey Windsor. The report identified issues of institutional homophobia, arguing that inadequate communication about the dangers of cruising areas and insufficient sharing of evidence of intelligence hampered the investigation. And they also, in the report, they referenced the Stephen Lawrence case and how kind of prejudice against a black man meant that intelligence just wasn't shared and there was folders and folders and files and boxes and boxes of evidence and reports that were just kind of ignored and not transferred from one place to another and all this.

It was all part of that and it was just like, oh yeah, you do that to people of colour and you do that to other... Any marginalised group. Exactly. Fucking awful.

Despite a £20,000 reward for information leading to an arrest and conviction, Geoffrey Windsor's murder remains unsolved. So they've got like absolutely no idea at all, they've just got this, what sounds like a rather flamboyant ring, and that's it? Yeah. Fucking hell.

Again, I'm not the killer, but it does look like a ring I would wear. Fair, fair, fair, fair. I'm going to have to see a photo of this.

Yeah. I just feel really sorry for Geoffrey. His sister did, that's who kind of came with the quote about the trains and stuff like that, but she didn't want to be identified.

Right. So yeah, that's it. Well, I... Oh.

Yeah. It's just... It is just the inefficient and inadequate policing, but it's also, I found, really like kind of inadequate reporting on it. Like there was no real, like... I think I've got an archived report or archived article from the BBC and there was another one that was... It was a screenshot of it, so it was on another website.

I think this is local London or something like that. Right, yeah, yeah. But it was a screenshot of a report from The Times, I believe.

Right. But that was kind of it. So there was no... Fucking hell.

I know. Well, that's... It's because, again, it's not a young, attractive white woman. So... It's just so sad.

It is sad. And it's awful to think that... It's awful to think that anybody is kind of like, you're brutally killed, you're attacked, and yet it comes across as if, well, you're not important enough. It didn't matter.

Or... Yeah. It's just... It's horrible. It's horrible.

And the fact that they think there were like 10 to 15 people in the park at the time. So they must have... But this is the other thing. So they must have had... They must have had a witness that came forward and said, look, I was in the park at that time.

There were loads of us there. Yeah, exactly. Because unless everything is like CCTV camera, in which case you would also hope that like... You'd see something else, right? You'd... Yeah.

I just... Oh, God. Okay. Yeah.

Poor Geoffrey. I know. It's really sad.

So now we get on to Jodie. So Jodie Dabrowski was born on the 27th of June, 1981, in Strude, Gloucestershire. Jesus.

It started. Jodie attended Archway School in Strude before moving on to study biomedical sciences with toxicology at the University of Wales in Cardiff. After completing his studies, he relocated to London in 2001, where he got a job as a show manager at the Battersea Jonglers Bar Riser Club, the flagship venue of the famous stand-up comedy club chain.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. After working there for a while, Jodie was offered an assistant manager position at the Camden Lock branch of the club. This came as no surprise to anyone who knew him, with Jodie being described as a young man full of promise, known for his warmth, wit, ambition and kindness.

In an interview with The Times, the bouncer at Jonglers said, if you had met this gentleman, you would know him to be a fresh-faced young man who never said a nasty word to anyone, even the drunks who came in off the street. That was his way, a kind, sweet guy. On Friday 14th October 2005, Jodie visited friends at the bar he had worked in before his promotion.

Right, so he's gone back to Beckenham. Clapham. Clapham, oh, sorry.

He parted ways with them around 10.15pm. He was approximately a 10-minute walk from Clapham Common. Right. Also around this time, two cunts were also wandering around Clapham Common.

Thomas Pickford, 25, and Scott Walker, 33, had spent the night of the 14th October drinking. The pair had met at a charity run hostel for ex-offenders and they had both been involved in an assault on a gay man in the area two weeks earlier. However, they were not recalled to prison at the time of that offence.

Of course not. Why not? Why? Walker was out on licence after assaulting and threatening to kill his own mother. His licence had expired the day before the murder, but he was still under licence at the time of the earlier assault.

Prosecutors later said the pair were involved in a premeditated plan to attack a gay man and shared an intention to kill. They sound like lovely humans. On the night in question, at around midnight, Jodie unfortunately became the target of the evil thick pricks.

Following a brief exchange of words, Pickford threw punches at Jodie before Walker joined in the assault enthusiastically. One witness who intervened and was warned off and told... OK, again, sorry, I'm just going to pause for a sec. I don't know whether to use the terminology in a direct quote or not.

I don't feel particularly comfortable saying... There's a lot of the abuse that was reported as being shouted during the attack that I haven't put in here because I don't really see the point of me using the words. Everyone listening will get the message of what was happening, right? But this one quote seems to be everywhere. So I put it in and I kind of thought to myself, well, I'll either say it or I won't.

I don't know. But I suppose my argument for... I mean, it's a line. It's not long and it's not... There's one particular word, but it's not the worst word in the world kind of thing.

Anyway, I think I'm going to say it because I think it gives good context for what these evil pricks were like, the headspace they were in. I think that matters. Yeah, I agree.

I think you've... Have I caveated enough? No one's going to think I'm homophobic. I think you've caveated. It's fine.

You're moving into the Rachel school of apologizing. I'm sorry I just breathed. I'm sorry.

But no, but I think it is difficult, isn't it? Because you want to tell the story as you've found it. And if it is important, then I personally think that, as you say, if it gives context, then... And it's like, again, there were other quotes with a lot more... Yeah. Horrible, horrible language that were in some of the reporting.

You can probably guess which papers really ran with it. But it was just absolutely unnecessary for me to include. It doesn't add anything.

And also not saying it doesn't detract from the abhorrent nature of what's going on here, right? Anyway, I'm going to say it. Go for it. Don't cancel me.

One witness who intervened was warned off and told, we don't like pofters here. That's why we can kill him if we want to. Fucking hell.

I mean, I don't think that that word is the most offensive part of that sentence. Well, no, obviously. And I feel a bit silly for making a big deal of it.

But yeah, I just didn't want to... It's fine. It's fine. We all get you.

We're here. These arseholes, right? Yeah, complete dicks. They then continued their attack for an unknown length of time, whilst, according to witnesses, continually shouting vile homophobic insults.

The witnesses who had tried to intervene and that had been threatened with similar treatment managed to get away and call the police. Right, OK. The injuries that were left on Jodie's poor body were so severe that a pathologist was unable to identify how many times he had been hit, but did identify 33 areas of injury to the head, face, ears and neck.

Tests carried out at St George's Hospital in Tooting revealed Jodie had a swollen brain, broken nose and extensive bruising to his neck, spine and groin. His family was unable to identify him due to his face being so badly disfigured and he had to be identified by his fingerprints. That is horrific.

That is... Mmm... It's unbearable. Fucking hell. Absolutely unbearable.

Thomas Pickford and Scott Walker were charged with murder after being arrested a week following the attack in October 2005. The court proceedings were marked by the defendants' initial denials, but they later confessed to the crime in May 2006. The trial took place at the Old Bailey, where Judge Brian Barker made history by applying Section 146 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003.

This section allows courts to impose harsher sentences when a crime is aggravated by the victim's sexual orientation. Good. Barker sentenced both men to life imprisonment with a minimum term of 28 years.

He condemned the attack as an act of homophobic thuggery, noting that the men had targeted Jodie purely because they believed he was gay. Jodie's family and friends packed the courtroom at the Old Bailey, each wearing a sunflower in his memory. As the sentences were passed, his mother shouted... His mother, Sherry, sorry, shouted, Woo-hoo! And the public gallery erupted in applause.

Earlier in proceedings, they had snorted in derision as counsel for Walker tried to express his client's sorrow at the killing. Oh, fuck off. That man was not sorry in any way, shape or form.

Outside the court, Sherry Dubrovsky said... It is unacceptable. We cannot accept this. No intelligent, healthy or reasonable society could.

She also paid tribute to her son for his strength in the face of cowardice, for struggling to become who he was, an intelligent, funny, hard-working and beautiful man whose life was brutally and mercilessly punched and kicked from him, who fought for some hours to stay with us. No, I'm going to cry. Oh, Bob.

And whose big dancing feet left behind such gentle footprints on this earth. Oh, Bob. On Thursday 2nd November 2006, Sherry received the prestigious honour from Jodie's hero, Stonewall co-founder and twice Oscar-nominated actor Sir Ian McKellen during the charity's inaugural awards evening at London's Royal Academy.

The Star Studded Ceremony was a celebration of the positive contributions made by individuals and organisations to the lives of gay people in Britain. Stonewall members voted for Mrs Dubrovsky after she courageously spoke out in the national and local media after Jodie's killers were sentenced. Speaking about the evening, Sherry said... I have had letters and wonderful comments from people.

In a way, it was such an honour. People identified with Jodie. He had a short life, but he left quite an impact.

There were a lot of gay people there thinking it could have been them. I told them I had met lots of real heroes. There are lots of Jodies out there who get up every day and are proud of who they are.

It was nerve-wracking meeting Sir Ian McKellen. Jodie would have been so embarrassed but so jealous that I met his hero. Sir Ian was very grateful that we had attended and admired us for being there.

At a memorial held for Jodie about a year later, where a tree was planted in his name near the site of his horrific murder, Jodie's stepfather, Mike Haddock, urged anyone suffering hate crime to come forward and contact the police. Jodie did not die because of his sexuality, Mr Haddock said. He died because of somebody else's prejudice.

We hope every individual and organisation that continues to promote homophobia comes to understand the consequences. Homophobia kills. That's a very strong, very true statement to make.

Oh, that dancing feet bit got me. I knew it was coming. I couldn't stop.

She's a legend. She sounds it. She's just so articulate.

I couldn't not put her whole quote in. That's exactly... I've said it before on this podcast and I will say it again. I do not understand how anybody can dedicate so much of their life and energy to hating somebody else for something that one, does not concern them and two, they cannot help.

Exactly. It's thick. It's fucking thick.

It's just ridiculous. It's very reminiscent of the Sophie Lancaster case, which again I think we've mentioned before on this and obviously we won't be able to do a case of it because it wasn't in London. But again with the hate crime and the targeting and also the horrific way that unfortunately both of them were murdered.

It's just... And there's something as well about a... You know how they always say that if you're stabbing someone is such a personal crime because you're up close and you have to be there, you are physically... There's almost like a degree of separation if it's a gun or whatever. I think that we can argue that beating somebody with your own fists is possibly even more so. Like... Yeah, I just... There's something so unhuman about kicking someone you've already beaten to the ground Yeah.

as well. And I was reading a thing about how kicking should be classified the same as using a deadly weapon. Okay.

And it should be treated the same under the law because the force of a kick is so intense and so insane that... And if you're already on the floor and you're already hurt and you're already beaten and you're already battered and bruised, you don't stand a chance. So you stand the same... You've got as little chance as you would have had with a knife. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're not coming... Yeah. It is horrific. It is horrific.

And I just thought these three men who... The only thing they were doing was living their lives. Yeah. You know? The only thing they were doing was living.

Yeah. And for some people, that was wrong. Yeah.

And I just cannot contemplate that mindset. I just don't get it. And I know that I probably... You know, there's probably still things that are ingrained in us that you kind of societally... Growing up, we were exposed to.

We used to say the word gay to be negative. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you say it all the time.

Yeah. And it took me quite a few... Yeah, it took me quite a while to grow out of that. Yeah.

And not accidentally say it or anything. And I think there's still like recesses of my mind where it might come out kind of unconsciously. I might say it when something... Like, what? Yeah, I know.

What the fuck is that about? I know. But it was... I can't remember. What was it? It was a TV show or something that was out when we were teenagers.

That whole like, oh, I ain't gay. Yeah. I can't remember what it was.

They still have it. I mean, let's not... You know, the homophobia in everything that is still like widely mainstream and accepted. The homophobia in friends.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like... But before any Gen Z's come for us, it is still... But it is ours. It is ours.

Leave it alone. But no, I'm with you. I think it's... We kind of assume that we are a... It's a bit like when we were talking about the New Crossfire and we were kind of saying that, you know, oh, well, you know, it's better.

And we can say it's better now because we're not racist and our children won't be racist. You kind of assume it's almost the same with homosexuality of all sorts. If homophobia and with transphobia... Breanna Gray.

That was us as kids. I know. But this is the thing is it's like you kind of assume that it's the same sort of thing, but actually there is still so much ingrained prejudice.

It's one of the things that like I'm trying very hard to make sure that my kids don't... I would really like it if it was just a thing that like they didn't think it weird. If a man's with a man or a woman's with a woman, it's just kind of... Not something they question. Exactly.

It's just sort of like, you know, so to the point where I had my neighbours... But it's also... Sorry, I talked to you. Carry on. So my neighbours are two married men, married to each other.

I made that sound like there was four people living in the South. They are married to each other and I said that to my youngest. I was like, oh, no, that's... One and two.

One partner's husband. And she was like, but they're both boys. I was like, yeah.

And she was like, oh, okay. And then went on with her life. And it's like, it's that kind of thing where you kind of hope that people will get to a point where it is just a non-thing.

You just say, oh, her and her wife... But it's the same question. The question has the same level of curiosity as why aren't Hannah and Uncle Richard married? Yeah, exactly. As why are neighbour one, neighbour two married? Yeah, exactly.

Why are mum and daddy married? Why is neighbour one, neighbour two? Or why has my friend got two mums? Yeah. But it's the same curiosity. Why have I got a mum and a dad? It's all... Because I think that's the difficult thing with kids, right? Is you can't... I think we're so... Maybe it's us.

Maybe it's just me and you being neurotic. Maybe it's me. Like, well, there's kind of a level of fear.

Yeah. Don't say that. Yeah.

Oh, my God. Don't ask that question. Yeah.

That makes the question unusual. Yes. And therefore makes the answer unusual.

You know, and I've seen your kids or other... I've seen other children or kind of in, you know, being three-ish, four-ish, go, why has that person got brown skin and I've got pink skin? You know, and if we immediately go, don't say that. Yeah. And I think I can't... I'm really wracking my brains, which is why that sentence is a bit discombobulated.

But there was... There is a disability activist who's in a wheelchair who I think also has another disfigurement or disability or kind of something that is more prominent on... Not more prominent than being in a wheelchair. That's pretty prominent. But like... But I think it's like a facial disfigurement as well.

And I don't know. Yeah. I can't... I can't remember.

But they were saying, if your kid goes, what happened to your face? Yeah. And you turn around and go, don't say that. Oh, my God.

Yeah. Who... Out of the two of you, the child and the parent, who's making me feel like a weirdo? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's very true.

And I have to stop myself because kids will do it. We're like, they will. They will stare at things that they don't recognize.

But they just... Everything's new, right? Exactly. It's not that they don't agree with it. They just don't fucking know what it is.

They're not staring at someone because they... Well, they probably are staring at someone if they've got a facial disfigurement and thinking, well, you don't look like everybody else. But that doesn't necessarily... That doesn't mean bad. Instantaneously mean negative.

Yeah. Exactly. And it's like one of the interesting things, again, with my four year old.

She's... She's in, you know, both of the kids are in an inner city school. Yeah. But they're in a very small inner city school.

We're quite lucky in the fact that it's a one form entry school, which is lovely because it means that everyone gets to integrate with everybody else, regardless of their age group, which is, I think, really quite nice. Because actually, it means that the younger kids aren't afraid of bigger kids. It's just sort of like, well, whatever.

We'll either be friends or we won't. End of it. But one of the things that she does is she will describe everyone.

She will tell me what color their skin is without being prompted. She'll just go, oh, I made a new friend today. Oh, OK.

What are they called? I can't remember her name, but she's got black skin and she's got really cool hair. And she's got this. And she's got a dinosaur pencil case.

Exactly. And I have to stop myself. But it is a description, isn't it? Yeah, exactly.

But I have to stop myself from going, well, it doesn't really matter what color her skin is. But like, why not? But she's just, she's explaining to me who her new... And you wouldn't have that gut reaction if she'd come home and said she's got blonde hair. Exactly.

She's got blonde hair and blue eyes. Oh, OK, cool. Why are you telling me that? Exactly.

Exactly. But the flip side of that is when I know a few people of maybe a generation or two above us that would go, I went to the dentist. He was Asian.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm kind of, oh, why are you telling me? I don't need to know the ethnicity of your dentist. I'm an adult.

You're an adult. Exactly. You went to the dentist.

Are you OK? Has your truth fallen out? I think that that is the difference. Exactly. It's that you are an adult who knows how to describe people in other ways.

You don't have the benefit of innocence on your side. So you're telling me this because you're differentiating that person. Exactly.

Not just by their job title. Exactly. Whereas a little child is differentiating people because they've just made 12 new friends and they're like, I don't remember all these people.

I need a database. It's also like, you know, you turn around and say, like, try and describe them to me without giving me any of their characteristics. And you're just going to go, the small child.

Excellent. One of the children? One of them. Great.

Excellent. Really works. But yeah, no, it is.

You do kind of hope that society is getting better in lots of ways, whether that is, you know, it's just any sort of phobias, homophobia, racism isn't a phobia, but, you know, it's not got a... Isms. Isms and phobias. There we go.

Sexism. All of that stuff. You just kind of hope that at some point humans will just stop being arseholes.

Well, the whole thing about them being protected minorities, right, is that we do the work to protect them. And then eventually the aim is to not have to be protective anymore. Yeah, exactly.

It's just an accepted thing. Yeah. But I just, I don't know.

Maybe it is just a millennial mindset, but it does baffle me that we're sitting here talking about these attacks and they happened in the early 2000s. And I just, in my own millennial naivety, I just assumed that, no, that wasn't happening then. That doesn't happen in our lifetime.

Everything was sorted by the time we were born. Yeah, exactly. Like, it's, it's mad, isn't it? Oh, mate.

Well, thank you so much. But can you see why I didn't want to explain it to you before I read it? Yes, I do. I do now.

And I appreciate it because actually it was a lot more, I don't know if you heard, but I did less noises because I was properly listening. Oh, so you weren't listening to Sally then? I was listening to Sally, but I was just very... You weren't into my motorway facts? I wasn't into your motorway facts. I was too busy thinking about what curry did she have? And where did she go to get the curry? I think, I don't think I'd eaten that day.

But no, like, it was... Sorry, I'm interrupting you. It's alright. Shut up.

Also, like, as I said at the top, and I know that we do this, like, we'll have a chat after the episode as well as before and all of that. But I said it, I wrote it so that I said it in the way I wanted to rather than like hesitating or whatever. I know I don't know everything.

And I know that I'm not completely free of sin. And I know that I'm not completely au fait with everything that really it's my job to put the work in to fucking become au fait with. And I'm getting there.

But I don't ever want to feel like I know it all. Because how closed minded is that? Like, I want to be surprised by what people want to do. And yeah, I want to learn about it to a respectful level.

Be like, Oh, wow. Okay, good for you. I think that's the thing, isn't it? It's about like, there's having a genuine kind of like curiosity, but it's a curiosity for all the right reasons.

And basically a four year old is what you're saying. Yeah, I have the curiosity and innocence of a four year old. But no, yeah, I get it.

And I think that like, you know, we're never going to be able to, as we've said multiple times on this podcast, we are two middle aged white women. We have the experiences that we have. And we have very privileged experiences in comparison to very many people, especially those people that we talk about on this podcast.

So not straight white men. Not straight white men. They're awful and can get in the bin.

But yeah, it's, there's only so much lived experience that we can put into these cases. And I think that the reason why we may come across as a little bit trepidatious is because of the fact that we are very conscious that we exactly as you say, we don't want to assume that we know everything. We don't want to assume that we understand everything.

There are certain things that we talk about that we will never be able to understand. But I think personally, that you did a very good job. Thanks, babe.

And I think that it's important to talk about these cases, even if there isn't a huge amount. I just couldn't let, I couldn't let Jap and Jeffrey go as anecdotal. Yeah.

They're not footnotes. They are their own people. Exactly.

And it's their own stories. And, you know, yeah, I just, the, the other aspect that I didn't really go into very much and I still don't even think we should really talk, give it that much airtime now, is the just complete inadequacy of the police force to deal with this. I think it's, it's so interesting, isn't it? Because it's very much, I was having this conversation the other day.

I can't remember who it was with. It may have been my husband. I might have actually spoken to him about something that wasn't the children or when he's going to edit this.

I can't remember. But yeah, it was sort of like, again, with that whole idea of lived experience, like there is a question around is the fact that the police force is so predominantly white male in its makeup. Is there something around the fact that that empathy, that kind of understanding that that drive to want to to sort of solve cases and things like that? Is there something in the fact that these people are not part of that community? They don't understand what it's like.

So maybe it's easier to kind of go public service. I'm not saying, okay, I'm not saying saying, you know, if you walked into a hospital with a certain blood group, oh, sorry, we can't treat you. No, no, no.

I don't know. I'm not giving them a pass with that. But what I'm saying is, it's like the only way that I was trying to figure out like why and how they can, how they can be just this.

Oh, well, can't be bothered. Yeah, not doing that. And it's it's trying to essentially what I'm trying to do is find a logical reason for something that is completely illogical.

Yeah, exactly. Good luck, babe. Many have tried.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say we're not going to work this out in the tiny shed recording a podcast. Fine. Fine.

I don't think you can solve prejudice. Well, maybe not even solve it, but just like scratch it a little bit and be like, and if you understood it, I'd be worried for you. Yeah.

The fact it confuses you is is a good thing. It's a positive thing. Yeah, I know.

I know. But I know. Thank you for that.

Because I think one, it was nice to have a different format to as I said, I think it's really important that we do talk about some of these smaller cases. And the plan is that we will launch a Patreon and some of these smaller podcast episodes. We've recorded a couple of them and then realized they were too short.

So they will go out on Patreon when that happens, which will be exciting. Am I going to get berated for doing this out of seven quid now or something? Whatever it's going to be. You'll be fine.

14 quid. It was two short cases. Shit.

It's all right. You know what? It's just I will just have to take the next $1.38 that we get for any sort of advertising that goes into this. Thank you, Buzzsprout.

But no, we will put them up there because there are some really important cases that as Hannah mentioned, just sometimes that just isn't enough to fill a whole episode. So those will be out on our Patreon when that launches, which is very weird. But no, thank you.

Really well researched. And I think personally that you told it with grace. Thanks, babe.

Thanks. Yeah. So I suppose we just got all the usual post Amble Instagram shit.

Yeah. Tick tock. Maybe.

Who knows? Email. Come on. Definitely need some email website.

Brilliant. Yeah. Go have a look at it.

Wonderful. Yeah. No.

Speaking of Instagram, I would be remiss because it has been weeks that I've been meaning to say this and then just haven't done it. But we had a really nice message on Instagram from Danny from Danny. Hi, Danny, who left a really gorgeous little message about how she was getting very weird looks from her husband because she was laughing and crying at some of the stuff that we were talking about.

So I just love the fact that she put in there. I just thought you should know it's not just your mum's and dad's listening, which is still absolutely bows my mind, but we're very grateful for you, Trevor's and we love you. And then the other thing I had to do that was very remiss if I didn't mention it.

Get me a present for some reason. I don't know. Well, yeah.

Yes. I'll do that. Legally binding.

It's on the podcast now. That's it. Contract.

No. Was to thank a friend of the show, Luke. Ah, the lovely friend of the show, Luke, who commented on, I think it was the New Crossfire where I couldn't remember the film Minority Report.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. It was Minority Report. Thank you very much.

And he also pointed out something to do with the boat on Marsh Ness. Oh, yeah, I know I did read that twice and then I was like, no, still, still not still not happening. Soz.

But forever in Friend of the Show, Luke's debt, because he's a legend. Absolute legend. Sorted us right out with our fact checking.

It was something about starboard, wasn't it? I can't find a comment now. Sorry. But yeah, but shout out to you, mate.

Hello. Hope you're well. Should catch up soon.

Anyway. So, yeah, leave us all the all the things. A nice review would be lovely.

Little five stars on Spotify would be wonderful. Drop us an email. SinisterSouthPod at gmail.com website is SinisterSouthPodcast.co.uk Instagram.

Just type in Sinister South will come up. TikTok, if I can have been asked to have revitalized it again, search for Sinister South will come up. Yeah.

That's it. That's it. All of it done.

Cool. Whoo. So I think all that's left to say then is thank you again.

And Travers, we love you. OK, love you. Cool.

See you later. See you later. Bye.

Bye.