The Penge Mystery: Harriet Staunton's Tragic Tale of Betrayal and Cruelty

Episode 28 Trevors!! In this episode, Rach (yes we know, it should be Han, but life got busy) dives into the harrowing case of Harriet Staunton, a wealthy South London woman subjected to unimaginable cruelty at the hands of her husband and his accomplices. From the chilling neglect she endured to the courtroom spectacle that shocked Victorian England, this story will leave you feeling icky...

But it's not all doom and gloom - We also discuss why finding each other at a gig feels like playing 'Where's Wally', some fascinating facts about Penge (or is it Annerley?), and how we plan to convince you excellent Trevors to join us on Instagram! 

Sources include:

• https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/record/t18770917-672
• https://gaslight-arts.com/SurvivorsX04.html
• https://vocal.media/criminal/the-horrific-cruelty-suffered-by-harriet-staunton-at-the-hand-of-her-husband
• https://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/apr/15/harriet-staunton-penge-murder-jenkins
• https://www.pengeheritagetrail.org.uk/history/709-2/
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Harriet_Staunton
• http://www.19thcenturyphotos.com/Louis-Staunton-and-Alice-Rhodes-126387.htm

Thanks for tuning in! If you loved diving into the dark corners of South London with us, don't forget to hit that subscribe button to never miss an episode of "Sinister South."

Also, follow us on Instagram @SinisterSouthPodcast for sneak peeks, behind-the-scenes content, and more cheeky banter, or www.sinistersouthpod.co.uk. Remember, every crime tells a story... and South is the best side of the river...

Produced and hosted by Hannah Williams & Rachel Baines
Mixed & edited by Purple Waves Sound (A.K.A Will)

Transcript

Harriet Staunton

Hello. Hi, I'm Rachel. I'm Hannah and this is Sinister South, a podcast all about the nefarious, criminal and downright dirty goings on in the south of London.

Love it, love it, love it, love it. Back to using the word nefarious. Yeah, every now and again.

Nefarious purposes. I'm only here for nefarious purposes. And if you know, you know.

How are you? Oh, how am I? How am I? I'm good. I've got loads of jobs. That's stressful.

And yeah, that's a lot. Yeah, but it's fine. Yeah, it's fine.

It's fine. I'm fine. I'm fine.

Are you currently the human personification of that meme with the dog? Yeah. And all the fire. Oh, God.

Yeah. Yeah. The immobility is like completely like, I've got so much to do.

So I'm gonna do none of it. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. That's an absolute classic. I adore that.

I find that I am my most procrastinating. Oh, that's a word. There we go.

When I am massively overwhelmed. Yeah. Like, rather than miss deadlines for one thing, I'm going to miss deadlines for all of it and everything.

Oh, well. You can all shout at me. Fine.

To be fair. I mean, at least then it's like at least you've not let one person down. You've just let everybody down.

And myself. It's just everybody down. I've let myself down.

I've wasted my own time. Detention. Oh, dear.

How are you? Yeah, I'm all right. I'm all right. Same.

Same. Same. Yeah.

Yeah, I've got a very quick feedback and fuck up I've got to do. Oh, which I haven't actually done the whole like recorded beforehand thing because I forgot. But it was on the Halloween episode.

Well, we were talking about the Croydon Cat Killer. And I made a whole thing about like, I don't really understand people who would feed foxes. Right.

Things like that. So my sister, who is head of the Fox Feeding Association of South London. She's best friend with Boudica.

No, she, she was very behind on her episodes. I know. She called me yesterday.

And was like, I'm in the car with mom and we're listening to the Halloween episode. And I just wanted to say, do you not remember that Nan used to purposefully buy digestive biscuits. And when you'd say to her, who are these biscuits for now, she'd go the foxes.

And I had completely forgotten that my nan used to do it. But she genuinely did. In her shopping, she would buy a pack of digestive biscuits.

And then massacre cats. Massacre cats. Yeah.

But they were purposefully for the foxes. Well, there you go. Which I just found hilarious.

I was about that. Bless her. Bless my nan.

Very sweet. Yeah. But what I don't understand with that, actually, is that she would then spend forever.

She had like every single one of those. You know, like the machines that would like deter cats and stuff. Oh, yeah.

They're like, do the really high pitch noise only cats can hear. Like, she'd have all of those. But she's like, Oh, I'd love a bit of a fox.

The foxes can stay. I don't know. It's, it's all it's all very bizarre.

But anyway. Yeah. So other than that, I'm all right, mate.

What have I been doing? Sorry, I fully aware that the reason this isn't a visual podcast is because of me. Yeah. But I was really just holding my tongue then because I knew you were distracted doing something.

I was like, I wonder where her brain will go. She had machines. Anyway, we're just doing other things.

Right. Record a fucking podcast. It was that there was an alert bar that came up.

And I was like, don't don't be fucking shutting down. We've tried to record this episode once before. It's just so there's a slight panic of what are you doing? Why is this happening? Not again.

Exactly. But no, otherwise, all good. I'm trying to think what I've done.

That's interesting. Not a lot. We went we went to a gig together.

But you didn't know that we were going to go to a gig together. That's very true. We I was very surprised by your cute little face.

Just like we are. So I was around here the day before and Rachel was like, oh, me and Will are going to see Soil the band tomorrow. And I was like, oh, like you'd mentioned it to me ages ago.

So I text Rich and I was like Rachel and Will are going to see Soil. And he was like, well, do you want to go? And I was like, well, where's the ticket? And normally the first thing I'd have done is text you and be like, and Richard literally could not believe that I hadn't messaged you that I hadn't. We got to Camden.

He was like, you're not going to see what pub they're in or where they're having dinner beforehand. I was like, nope. I trust that if I meant to see her here, I will.

He was like, you're just creating your own game of where's Wally. Very fitting in Camden, aren't you? So we got there, watched pretty much all of the support band. Yeah.

And which was fun. And I'd gone to the toilet and everything. I was like, I can spot Rachel in the crowd.

I could spot Rachel in the crowd. And I was really giving it. And Richard was like, go on then.

And I was like, everyone's got red hair. Every woman in here is wearing black and has red hair. I will never find her.

Every man has a beard. I don't know what to do. They're all white.

Everyone is white. We're all the same person. I'm the alternative one for being blonde.

I really started to panic. And then just kind of just towards the end of the support act, I was standing there and I'd kind of given up. And I said to Rich, I'll text her in between the bands and whatever.

And he was like, okay. And then literally as I gave up, I was like, there. And it was like the crowd parted for me.

And you know what I'm like, I don't go near the front. I get very claustrophobic. I don't like being barged into.

And you were like, I was right at the back and you were so much further in than me. And I was like, I'm off. And Richard was like, I was like a weasel.

I'll get to her. I will find her. And I was like, Richard said he was just trying to like kind of run, go, sorry, sorry, excuse me.

Sorry to everyone that I was just barging through. So uncharacteristic. I must get to her.

And I was like, what am I going to do? And I had the idea that I was going to pinch Will's ass from behind. And I thought, oh no, just there'd be the one day that your husband's violent and I'll get punched in the face. Again, uncharacteristically.

Anything could happen. So I was like, I'm just going to put my face in the middle of their two faces and see what they do. Well, I just thought it was hilarious because Will was like, he said he spotted you.

He turned around, saw you. He's like, oh, you're right. And then went, hang on.

Why wouldn't she be everywhere I fucking am? But I also do love the fact that you did say to Rich, we need to go to the sound booth and we will find him. Yes, exactly. He was like, well, where do they normally stand at gigs? And I was like, either the centre or slightly to the right or the left of the sound desk.

Is exactly where we were. Will has his little patterns. But yeah, that was an interesting gig.

I did just find it hilarious. Richard doesn't remember getting the train home. Well, I don't blame him.

I think they were both. It was when they were like, we both need to go to the toilet. We'll catch you up on the train.

And then they stood outside the toilet for 10 minutes. With us ringing them. Being like, get on the train.

We are on the train. It is leaving. I don't know who picked up on it out of everyone.

But so I have a thing where I can't, on a train, I can't go backwards in the seat. And we rushed on the train, we got on, and it turned out I was going backwards. And I'd kind of said it to the boys.

Is it like once they'd got on the train? I was like, boys, like, can one of you or can someone swap with me? Thinking one of them would get up and be gallant. And no one said anything. So you were like, I'll just swap.

And she went, you said to me, I'll swap with you. And I went, well, husbands. And you laughed.

And I went, oh, I was like, oh, too keen. I actually now think that the bump pinch would have been very well received. I slap on the ass.

Oh, yeah, that was it was a fun gig. It was a weird one. Just because it was one of those things where like, I walked into the smoking area.

And was just like, hang on. It is 2008. Like what has happened? With wrinkles, with all the same people, but I've just got older.

Yeah, exactly the same people that you would have seen in the smoking area in 2008. But also the smoking area smelt a lot nicer. Oh, God, it was very, very bluesberry.

Bluesberry? Ah, very bluesberry. Very blueberry sour raspberry. It was insane.

But I have something else I've just remembered to tell you about this gig. So I don't know how deeply personal this is to you and Will, but there is a Soil song that is quintessentially your song, right? It was your second dance. So I don't know if you noticed that during the gig, Richard kept talking to the security guy.

I just thought he was friends with all the security men. Fair assumption, but not this time. He actually negotiated with him to be allowed to film Halo from the up the stairs.

And he's just filmed you and Will. That's so cute. I mean, it's Richard and his camera skills.

So it's not going to, like, make it to your all time favourite videos of all time ever. But it's very sweet. And probably the most romantic thing he's ever done.

And it wasn't for me. But you know what, mate, that is men in general, right? That is just what men do. Oh, that's really cute.

And so I hadn't told you. Yeah. Oh, well, thank you.

I'm gonna have to. I'll enjoy watching it and probably then go, oh, he's got all the wrong angles. I look like I've got a proper beak.

I'm going to say the first, like, three seconds, neither you or Will seem at all bothered. It's like, yep. Kind of thinking it'd be this big romantic moment and just you two, like, la la la la la.

No, it's like, oh, what it is, is it's genuinely like, because we're both going deaf because we're old and we're listening to it. And it's like, what I didn't realise until I went to see Soil that evening was that a lot of Soil songs sound the same. Yes.

And so it was this one I heard about four times. There were other songs that came on and I went, no. So I think that was probably that was it.

But my favourite part of the gig was watching Head P.E. doing Bartender, the only song that anyone knows by them. But it was just how out of breath the lead singer was. Oh, my God.

And it was kind of like, so we've seen, me and Richard have been to see quite a few bands in the last couple of years that are old, like older, kind of our generation came out and they were pretty old when they released their songs when we first heard them. And you can tell that the band has spoken to each other and the musicality has been shifted slightly to maybe put it in a pitch that the singer can now sing at or like maybe slowed the tempo ever so slightly just to make it just to keep up with the ball. Oh, they did none of this work.

He was so bad, but also just completely out of tune. He could not hit any of the notes. It was insane.

But he kept I had to admire the sheer determination. Right. Oh, wow.

That sounded horrible. It was also in the second set. Well, there were four support bands.

I didn't say so. I didn't see the first one. But then I think they're called non non point or something like that.

Anyway, they're right. I'd never heard of them before. But at one point he did go, I've seen you all do this.

And he was moving his arms side to side. He was like, now I want to see you all do this. And he moved his hands from up and down.

And I immediately turned around to Will and said, does he not realize we won't get up again? It's just if I bend down, that's where I'm staying. That's it. The knees will crack.

Know your audience. We are not agile any longer. We're all mid thirties.

Jump up, jump up and get down. If you want me to stay there. Fine.

Jump up and jump up and lay down. Lay down for maybe five to 10 minutes. Until your back hurts because the floor's cold.

Then you've got to get up because I'll get piled. Aging is a wonderfully beautiful thing. But yeah, I'm going to tell you a story today.

And the eagerly amongst you will realize it's not Rachel's week. But Oh, guys, I haven't written my case. That's the long and short of it.

There's been some stuff going on. But also, technically, you did too. Back to back because I hadn't written my case back when we started.

Yes. So now it's just this was like my one. Yeah.

We can each have one like, yeah, jail free. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

So it's all good. It'll happen again. Maybe not before the end of this season.

But oh, yeah. Hard pushed. I mean, unless I literally just got on strike.

Nope, not doing it. That's the thing we should probably say we're doing seasons. But when we say we're doing seasons is literally we're going to give you another like, I think three episodes.

And then it's going to be Christmas time. And life gets really busy. So we won't have time to record.

So we'll have a break until the new year. I think does it work out? It's like, is it one week or two? I think it might be two weeks. I think it's about an episode.

Yeah, I think it's over the actual like, Christmas week and New Year week. And then we're back. They go following week.

So talk to your family, talk to your friends. If you can't do that, listen to Marchioness. Everyone loves that.

Honestly, if we don't, if we don't enter some sort of award and win, I want to find I'm sure there's going to be some really super niche awards somewhere where we can be like best podcast featuring best South London podcast with two female presenters that talks about aggregate and slag. I will make us an award. But no, so I am going to tell you a story today.

We have tried to record this before those who have been listening to the back catalogue will have heard Han mention about the episode that we recorded where actually none of her recording was done. So we're going to try again this week and see if we can actually get Hannah's voice on tape. I don't know why I suddenly turned into Christopher Walken.

I'm not making any noise so that the listeners can get a sample of what it was like. I didn't mean to not record your voice. I didn't mean there were two tracks running.

I can see you. It's fine. Anyway, stop it.

It's really unnerving. Right. Are you comfortable? Yeah.

Are you settled in? It has also been enough weeks that you may have not remembered everything. So there might be some. I have a vague feeling that when we actually did try and record this one, and it went wrong, that there was a big point where I wasn't listening.

And I remember thinking to myself, shit, I wonder if I get away with that in the edit where I'm just going. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Mm hmm. Is she still fucking talking? I think something something had come back into stock on a source that I wanted. Quick.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. Trousers. So, you know, so it might all be new.

It might all be new to me. Well, there we go. Should we have a go and see what happens? Fuck it.

Why not? Because we have been rabbiting on for 18 minutes. Well, there we go. That's what you get.

That is what you get. Right. So today we are doing the story of Harriet Saunton.

And I'm not only going to take you back in time, but I'm also going to take you to a part of South London that we haven't been to before. I don't think I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong. But it's my understanding that we've not been here.

The wonderful part of London that is known as Penj. Oh, Penj. Good old Penj.

So before we get into what is actually quite a nasty story, I thought that I'd tell you a little bit about Penj. Because we've not visited before. We've done a lot of Southwark.

We've done a lot of Lambeth. We've done a lot of Croydon. But we've not been to Penj before.

So I just thought I'd set the scene a little bit. If it turns out that we've got like 14 cases from Penj, Luke's going to have a filled day. Luke is going to have an absolutely filled day.

So a couple of facts, fun facts about Penj. One, it's where my sister-in-law is from. Okay.

The reason this is an interesting fact. I love your sister-in-law, but there you go. Yeah.

But she will tell you, she will swear blind that she is not from Penj, that she's from Annerley. But geographically speaking, that's incorrect. Some famous people who lived in Penj include Thomas Crapper, who is incorrectly thought to be the inventor of the toilet, but actually he just patented the floating stopcock, the S-bend and the U-bend.

So kind of all the important bits of a toilet. Yeah. What he didn't patent was a bucket.

Yeah. This is, this is right. I wouldn't, it's the gods of Wikipedia have told me this.

Okay. I'm just, okay. So apparently it's incorrectly known as the father of the toilet.

Fine. Other famous people, George Daniels, who was a famous horologist or watchmaker. And he apparently made the coaxial escapement that's used in Amiga watches.

There you go. So I'm getting really excited. I'm trying to rival slag now.

You can't rival slag. I didn't write slag in one night. No, you didn't.

You didn't. I became totally about slag. Prime Minister Andrew Bonar Law and Rolling Stones bassist, Bill Wyman.

There you go. Some famous people. Penge is a Celtic word meaning the hill on the forest and the forest in question being the great North wood, which covered much of the area to the North of Croydon.

Norwood. Norwood. Exactly.

There we go. There we go. And it was famously referenced by none other than Danny Dyer in the film Football Factory, where he refers to his friend's girlfriends as being penge-minge.

There we go. So is any of that relevant to the story I'm about to tell you? Absolutely not. But it is brutal.

So I have just attempted to try and make it a little bit more fun to start off with. There was the light. Now let's delve very deeply into the dark.

Very much into the dark. Right. So today we are going back to the lovely aforementioned Penge.

There we go. And we're also going back in time. We're going to 1877.

So this is another historical one. And I'm going to be telling you about the tale of the Penge mystery, a.k.a. the horrible murder of Harriet Staunton. So this is one of the first times that, like, it sounds really geeky, and I know I am a geek, but it was really cool because I was able to access the entire trial transcript.

Oh, wow. Of this case. And it's like one of the first times we've spoken about it before, like, the things like that aren't as readily available or as easily accessible as they seem to be in the States.

But yeah, they were all from the Old Bailey. And it also gave a really interesting insight into sort of like what the justice system was like back then as well, which the little history geek in me absolutely loved. Make you happy, babe.

It did make me really happy. So what I'll do is I will, I'll link the transcripts in the show notes as well. So if anyone else is interested, you can go and have a look at them.

Anyway, so Harriet Staunton, N.E. Richardson. Why is it N.E.? I know this. Hang on.

Well, you know, it's a maiden name, but isn't it? It's a French word. It's the French. It's like the French word.

It's an abbreviation or a participle or whatever the French call it. Right. Of the French word for to be born.

So you're born with the name. So every woman has a knee. Ah, so she was a two.

Yeah, she was born or whatever. So yeah. That's very interesting.

Well done. Good, good facts. But yeah, so Harriet was born to a Mrs. Butterfield and Reverend Richardson in Essex.

And Harriet's father died when she was 12. And her mother then remarried, hence Butterfield. But even though Reverend Richardson left the family earlier than they would have liked, it wasn't all terrible because even before Mrs. Butterfield remarried, Harriet's great aunt had left the family a legacy of about £5,000.

Oh, blimey. Which is about £500,000 in 2024. Jeez.

So yeah, so that kind of meant that Harriet and her mum were fairly comfortable. I know some Butterfields. Oh, do you? Oh, yeah, of course.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know them too. I wonder if they're related.

Maybe. Did I tell you that I found out that my parents' neighbours are pooks? Did I tell you? Yeah. That's me being like, pook is a very funny, funny last name.

Apparently, my parents know some pooks. What case was that? Because otherwise, that's just going to sound like you've lost your absolute mind. Did I tell you my next door neighbour's surname is Pook? OK, Rach, shall we go on with the podcast? What do you mean you're not interested in every piece of where my brain goes? I mean, I am, but the listeners might be like, how is this relevant to us? So, listeners, dear listeners, I think it's episode four, maybe, which is another historical one.

Jane Clawson, or the Viper of Kidbrook Lane. She was killed by, allegedly, killed by a man called Edmund Pook. Ah, Edmund, you delicate prick.

Delicate, delicate prick. But yeah, anyway, so... Did you know my neighbours are called Pook? OK, good for you. Anyway, shall we go on with it? We'll carry on, we'll carry on.

So back to Harriet. Harriet was described as being, and I quote, simple-minded by her mum. Don't mothers say the loveliest of things to you? But her mum kind of, even though she caught her simple-minded, she did actually care a lot about her daughter.

And she took really good care of her, teaching her to dress well and to behave like a lady in polite society. It's speculated, and this is, you have to be careful with things like this because it's so old, but it's speculated. Some people said that she had learning difficulties, but I don't know what learning difficulties.

Some said that she was possibly somewhere on the autism spectrum. And then others have then also said that they actually think that she was simple-minded because she was starved of oxygen at birth. Oh, wow, OK.

So it could be a genuine, albeit terrible term, terminology used in the olden days, but it could be a genuine medical disability or it could just be the way that people described women. Exactly, exactly. We're not entirely certain, but yeah.

Harriet's mother, as I say, she was kind in comparison to most people at the time. She was very kind about her daughter. And even though Harriet was prone to rages and queer moods, she wasn't confined to the house.

And a lot of people who had similar disabilities at the time would have been kept away from society. Harriet's mother didn't believe in that and taught her to kind of run in the circles that their wealth sort of meant that they were expected to. Yeah.

And Harriet apparently loved to make shopping trips and she made regular visits to relatives who sometimes received money for taking care of her and giving her mum a little bit of a break, so like respite care. And it was during one of these visits in 1873 that Harriet met a man called Lewis Staunton. Now, there's a little bit of a complicated history.

There's a lot of names I'm about to throw at you. I'll try and keep them all straight, but just, yeah. So Thomas Hinksman was the son of Harriet's aunt, who was called Mrs Ellis.

And he had married a widow. I don't know the widow's name. Just widow.

And in doing so, he had gained two stepdaughters who were called Elizabeth, who was 23, and Alice, who was 15. Elizabeth, so the older daughter, stepdaughter, had recently married a man, an artist, whose name was Patrick Staunton. And his elder brother was Lewis Staunton.

Wow, okay. So yeah, so it's... So it's her... Her cousin. Harriet's cousin.

Cousin, married someone who had children. Yeah. One of those children was married to someone who had a brother.

Yeah. That brother is this Lewis. That's correct.

Okay, well done. So yeah, Lewis was Patrick's elder brother, and he was 23 years old. And he was introduced to Harriet by her cousin, Thomas.

Okay, so a little bit about this arsehole. Um, Lewis Adolphus Edmund Staunton. So there's another Edmund.

There we go. It was born in 1851 in Camberwell to Thomas Henry Staunton and Mary Alice Agnes Williams. He was an auctioneer's clerk from Streatham, and he actually had started a relationship with his younger brother's sister-in-law, Alice, who was just 15 at the time.

So he was 23, she was 15. I mean, it was another time, but still. Yeah, so despite his completely inappropriate affair, Lewis decided to simultaneously court Harriet.

Okay. So he's with Alice. Right.

But he also decides that he's going to try it on with Harriet. Now, obviously, this is nothing at all to do with her wealth. Of course not.

And all because he genuinely described a woman who was described, he genuinely loved a woman, sorry, who was described as, and I quote, at 35 years old, she was large and ungainly with droopy black eyes and a coarse complexion. Hey, Harriet. Takes one to know one, babe.

So you're in good company. The other interesting thing was that Lewis was 23 and Harriet was 35, which is not. So he's got both a younger and an older woman.

There you go. Lewis was seen to be a ruthless fortune hunter and only after the briefest of courtships, he and Harriet were engaged. Now, as I said, Mrs Butterfield, Harriet's mum, she had kind of never expected to see her daughter as the object of any man's affections.

Right. Because of her mental capacity and the sort of, as she said earlier, prone to rages and things like that. She just didn't see it.

It wasn't in her. No, it wasn't in her plan. And even back then, I think that like, don't we start now another time? I think even.

The other thing is like back then in the 1800s, if you were 35 and you weren't married or you didn't have children, you were a spinster. Yeah. And that was kind of frowned upon.

I think Mrs Butterfield was just completely like, oh, it's absolutely fine. Don't worry about it. It's not going to matter.

It's not an issue. But yeah, so naturally she was very suspicious of Lewis and his intentions, and she strongly opposed the marriage from the start. She even tried to prevent it by having Harriet declared legally unfit to manage her own affairs due to her intellectual limitations and petitioning to have her protected by the court of chancery as a lunatic.

Blimey. Yeah. Which seems a bit like.

No, like she really wanted to protect her kid. She did. Yeah, yeah.

But that's what I mean. It's kind of like you'd go that far to kind of stop it. Yeah, it's really sad.

Unfortunately, these attempts were unsuccessful and Harriet went ahead with the marriage to Lewis, a man it would soon become, who it would soon become a parent, had no intention of caring for her whatsoever. Harriet was enraged by her mum's attempts to prevent their happiness, and she banned her from visiting the couple after their wedding. She left her mother's house to live with Mrs Ellis, so her aunt in Woolworth, South London, and she married Lewis in Clapham on, I don't have the exact date, but June 1875.

So even though the marriage went ahead and Harriet was incredibly angry at her mum, her mum was very much like, she didn't want to lose touch with her daughter. She wanted to make sure that she was okay. So three weeks after they got married, Mrs Butterfield visited Harriet at her new home at 8 Loughborough Park.

And Harriet answered the door herself, which was unusual for women of her standing. And it kind of suggested that they didn't have a servant, which was a bit odd. And Harriet apparently seemed very subdued during the visit.

And when her mum asked if she was happy, Harriet said, pretty well, mama, middling. And that was it. And so it was kind of, there were warning signs then.

Now Dickhead Lewis was present during the visit and the atmosphere was quite uncomfortable according to Mrs Butterfield. She'd also noticed that like, not only had Harriet come to open the door, but that the house was quite sparsely furnished. There was no evidence that there was anyone to kind of help the couple, which again, when you've got the money, very unusual for the time.

Exactly. When you've got the money, really weird. And also Harriet didn't look like she'd been being cared for.

And this was three days after they got married. So Lewis insisted that the reason why the house was as it was, was that they just moved in, that he had advertised for a servant, but hadn't hired one yet, which, you know, could have been true. You know, the visit, the whole visit that Mrs Butterfield had was 10 minutes long.

And then Lewis and Harriet accompanied her back to the train station. Mrs Butterfield later described this interaction as civil, but a bit cold. Yeah.

Anyway, so after this visit, things worsened and Lewis sent a letter to Mrs Butterfield that insisted that she was not allowed to visit their home again, stating that her presence would cause disturbances between him and Harriet. Wow, red flag. Yeah, 100%.

And then Harriet herself also wrote to her mum and said that she thought it might be better if she didn't visit again as it would upset Lewis. These letters were basically the end, the last time that Harriet and Mrs Butterfield ever spoke. Oh, that's so sad.

Yeah, so she never had any sort of relationship with her mother after this, which is awful when you think about the lengths that her mum went to try and look after her. And as I say, at that point in time, it wouldn't have been uncommon for her to have been shipped off somewhere or put in a workhouse or whatever, even with the amount of money they had. But Mrs Butterfield seemed to... To really want to look after her kid.

Exactly, she gave a shit. Right, so what actually happened to Harriet? Now, I'm going to go through some things here and they are a bit bleak. So I'm just going to put a trigger warning out for lots of different things.

But yeah, let's just get into it. So, Harriet's life quickly deteriorated after her mum was banned from communicating with her. Lewis Staunton, along with his brother Patrick, Patrick's wife, Elizabeth, and Lewis's younger lover, Alice, began systematically isolating Harriet from her family and the outside world.

Deprived of any support, Harriet fell completely under their control and they began neglecting her both physically and emotionally. So once Lewis and the Staunton family had gained full control over Harriet, they basically isolated her from any form of external support. She was moved from place to place, including their homes in Loughborough Park and later to an isolated property in Cudham in Kent.

Her location was often kept secret from people who knew her, especially her mother. And Harriet was not allowed to maintain contact with not just her mother, but anyone from her past life. And they basically were cutting her off from anyone who would have intervened.

Yeah, this is horrible. Yeah. So in March 1876, so a year after Harriet and Lewis were married, Harriet gave birth to her son.

Oh, wow. Okay, so this is the other thing. It's very much like, okay, marry her for her money and you don't really care and whatever.

But then to, in some regards, be like, oh no, you're my wife. You just know that it's just, it's another bit of property for him, right? But yes, so Harriet gave birth to her son, Thomas Henry Staunton. And while she kind of then had somebody that she could be isolated with, it didn't last very long.

And soon after, Lewis moved his lover, Alice Rhodes, into their house. Oh, God. In a place called Little Greys.

And Harriet and Thomas were sent to a place called Thrift Cottage, where Patrick and Elizabeth Staunton, Lewis's brother and sister-in-law, confined both her and the baby to a small, unfurnished upstairs room. Harriet had no access to proper care and her son was left essentially just to be neglected. Oh, my God.

Harriet has mental capacity issues or limitations. So she wasn't necessarily the right person to be looking after her son. To be able to care for her baby.

Exactly. And no one else decided he was worth looking after. That, like, I mean, don't get me wrong, this is all horrific and the isolation and neglect of a woman is terrible.

But it's really, like, to me, it screams really unusual that this man isn't looking after his son. I think that, and I'm with you, because I first thought that when I read it, I just assumed that it would be like, oh, well, we'll have the son and he can live with us. I have a feeling because of her capacity issues, he basically assumed that the son would be no better.

I don't think it wasn't a baby that was wanted. I think it was just, yeah. Anyway, so Thomas's health began to decline shortly after his birth due to the neglect that we've spoken about.

And by early 1877, so he was born in March 1876. In early 1877, he had become severely malnourished. And on April the 8th, 1877, Patrick and Elizabeth Staunton finally took the incredibly ill child to Guy's Hospital in London, but they took him there under a false name.

He was found to be emaciated and he had bruises on his body indicating physical abuse. Oh my God. And Thomas died later that same day from malnutrition and neglect.

So after all this, Harriet, so when we say like the isolation and neglect, right, just to put it into context. So she's already been described as not a particularly attractive woman, right, whatever, fine. But one of the things that people kind of, and those people who saw her just out and about or like whatever, it wasn't necessarily people who knew her to know what she was like beforehand, but there were reports that her appearance rapidly declined.

Right. Because she was denied sort of basic hygiene as well as like anything else. So she wasn't bathed regularly, if at all.

She was left in dirty clothes and bed sheets. And by the time she was discovered near her death, spoiler alert, Harriet's body was filthy. Her hair was described as being matted with dirt and lice and her skin was covered in grime.

The post-mortem examination revealed that her body was, and I quote, alive with lice. Oh my gosh. Particularly in areas like her head, armpits and pelvic region, which were covered in what were described at the time as poverty lice due to her prolonged lack of cleanliness.

Her feet were described as hard and caked in dirt, with the skin becoming leathery from being left unwashed and potentially walking barefoot. Wow. That's so bleak.

This is a woman who has a substantial amount of money. But not anymore. Exactly.

It's just, it's just awful. So the most significant aspect of Harriet's mistreatment was the deliberate starvation that she suffered. So over time, her captors gave her less and less food, which led to severe malnutrition.

And when she was moved to the Staunton family home and then later to Cudham, they deprived her of proper meals entirely. So at first it was meals, but they were getting smaller in portion size. And then it was just, you just don't get food.

Despite Harriet's rapidly declining health, no one, no one gave a shit. So no doctor was called. The Stauntons and Alice took no steps to provide her with the help she really needed.

And when she became seriously ill, they didn't seek medical attention until it was far too late. Yeah. In her final days, Harriet was bedridden, unable to eat or drink, and she was still just left on her own.

Wow. So in addition to the physical abuse, Harriet was subjected to emotional cruelty as well. So Lewis Staunton openly conducted his affair with Alice Rhodes, and they flaunted their relationship in front of Harriet.

Harriet had to watch her husband and his lover live together while she was ignored and treated as an inconvenience. She had a child that no one helped her with and then died. There were also reports that the Stauntons deliberately hid her clothing, such as her hat and jacket, so she couldn't leave the house or go outside.

Oh my God. The Stauntons deceived Harriet about her situation and manipulated her in every aspect of her life. They basically told her that no one wanted to see her.

They also told her that this is what life was like for married women. That the whole point was that she didn't need to go anywhere now because Lewis was going to sort everything out for her. They were just awful.

Just horrific. And they had all the control over her finances, obviously. They siphoned off her inheritance while they kept her imprisoned.

And even in her final months when she was kind of confused and distressed, as one would be, about her condition, she was told lies to keep her compliant. And yeah, she was told that she couldn't leave the house because that's not what married women did. And that her isolation was completely normal.

And it's just like, there is a special place in hell for anyone who's treated like this is awful. But like, the fact that they're doing it because they know that she's not... She doesn't know any better. Exactly.

She's such a vulnerable person. And it's just... It's just the most... vile manipulation. Yeah, it really is.

It's just plain cruelty. A hundred percent. Like, you wouldn't treat an animal like this.

I mean, not more decent humans wouldn't treat an animal like it. Like, why you think you could treat a human like that? It's just awful. In April of 1877, so the same month as Thomas passed away, Harriet was moved to 34 Forbes Road in Penge, which became her final residence.

By then, she was in a shocking state of physical deterioration. And on the night of April the 12th, 1877, she was transported to Penge in an open wagonette, which sounds like... Just hear the idea of an open wagon and I just think of a plague cart. It's not particularly nice.

Witnesses at Bromley Railway Station observed two men who it was later discovered were Lewis and Patrick. Lifting Harriet from the wagonette as she was too weak to move. Railway porters and other bystanders noted how ill she appeared, with one saying that she seemed unable to stand on her legs.

Harriet was taken by train to Penge and then placed in a chair by the Stauntons before being carried into the house at 34 Forbes Road. She was in extreme distress, rolling her eyes and groaning, but she was unable to speak. She's dying.

She is dying, yeah. Once inside the house, Harriet was left in bed and no immediate medical attention was sought. When a doctor was finally called the following day, it was already too late and Harriet died on April the 13th, just one day after arriving in Penge and about six days after the death of her son.

So, the initial investigation and inquest. So initially the cause of death was recorded as a cerebral disease or apoplexy. I mean, I struggled with that one because I'm a bit like, I know that medical science was not as it is now.

Surely someone comes in in the state that she was in. Exactly. Oh, cerebral.

Yeah, brain damage. No, I don't think so. But anyway, it did change later.

The discovery of Harriet's death was, interestingly, I don't think anybody reported that she died. So, her brother-in-law, another Lewis, the family tree gets all a bit mad. So, her brother-in-law was a man called Lewis Casabianca and he was suspicious about what had happened to Harriet.

Sorry, whose brother? So, he is... Who's he married to? He is married to, I believe, it is Lewis Staunton's sister. We don't know who she is. Oh, OK, I see.

He's on that side of the family. Yeah, it's the Staunton side of the family. Yeah, Lewis Casabianca, he became suspicious after he had an encounter with Lewis at the local post office where Lewis Staunton was trying to obtain information about whether Penge was in Surrey or Kent at the time.

It's definitely South London now for the purposes of registering Harriet's death. But no one had heard about the fact that she died. Yeah.

So, it was very much like, hang on, what's going on? Thank God this Casabianca was in the post office. I know, exactly. And he overheard it, thought that Lewis was behaving weirdly for a man who just had his wife die.

And his child. And he was so concerned by it that he contacted the police and told them to go and figure out what was going on. So, when the police were informed, they quickly went to the house, they found Harriet and they launched an inquest into her death.

And an examination of her body revealed horrific evidence of long term neglect and mistreatment. This next bit isn't nice to listen to. So, I'm going to put out a big trigger.

Poor Harriet. The post-mortem conducted by a doctor, Dean Longrig and other medical experts uncovered the full extent of Harriet's suffering. The findings painted a shocking picture of the abuse and deprivation that she had endured rather than the previously recorded cases of cerebral disease or apoplexy.

And if you're wondering, like I was, what apoplexy actually is, it most often refers to stroke symptoms that occur suddenly. Such symptoms usually occur due to bleeding into the brain and it can also occur by a blood clot in a brain blood vessel. Right, okay.

At the time of her death, Harriet weighed only five stone four pounds, which was around 74 pounds or 33.5 kilograms, which was far below the healthy weight for a woman of her size and age. Her body was described as fearfully emaciated with no fat on her frame and significant muscle wasting. The report highlighted that Harriet's organs, including her liver and kidneys, were significantly smaller than normal, which is a sign of prolonged malnutrition.

Her heart was also underdeveloped and weighed less than what would be expected for someone of her height. Oh my gosh. The internal examination revealed that Harriet's stomach contained only small amounts of undigested food, milk and a little solid food, which they think was bacon.

Okay. The medical experts concluded that Harriet had not been fed properly for months and when she was fed, it was possibly that that knocked her over the edge. Yeah.

Your body's just like, I don't know how to process this anymore. I don't know what I'm doing here, guys. Exactly.

So that's exactly what it says. Her digestive system was unable to process the food she was given, which likely contributed to her death. Dr. Longrig stated, and I quote, the appearance of the body was characteristic of starvation.

The condition of her internal organs, especially the thinning of the stomach lining, has confirmed that she suffered from prolonged malnutrition. While Harriet's brain showed signs of slight tubercular deposits and some old adhesions, these were said to not be the cause of her death. Her brain was remarkably healthy, leading the doctors to rule out any significant neurological disease.

And the primary cause of death, according to the postmortem, was starvation, not any other underlying disease. So the coroner and doctors also found congestion in various parts of her body, including her brain, rectum and stomach, which indicated extreme bodily stress, likely exacerbated by the sudden intake of food after prolonged starvation. Oh, poor Harriet.

It's not pleasant. So Dr. Dean Longrig, again, he gave a detailed account of her physical state, saying the body was so wasted that there was hardly any muscle left. She had been systematically starved and her organs were shrunken to a fraction of their normal size.

He also noted the presence of lice and filth, describing the conditions as inhuman. Another medical expert, Dr. John Meeburn Bright, who was also present at the postmortem, testified that Harriet had likely been in this emaciated state for at least three months. He said that the emaciation must have been apparent to those about her.

It could not have been mistaken. This woman was visibly wasting away. With the autopsy findings and witness statements, the police moved quickly to arrest those responsible.

Lewis Staunton, his brother, Patrick, Patrick's wife, Elizabeth, and Alice Rhodes, Lewis's lover, were all arrested and charged with Harriet's murder. Wow. I know.

Okay. The arrest of the Stauntons and Alice Rhodes shocked the public due to the cruelty involved in Harriet's treatment and the high profile nature of the case. The trial became one of the most notorious legal cases in Victorian England.

The prosecution argued that the group had systematically starved and neglected her and the defendants were accused of imprisoning Harriet and denying her basic necessities like food, hygiene, and medical care, ultimately causing her to die from malnutrition and neglect. The trial became an absolute spectacle. The courtroom was regularly filled with more onlookers than it could contain, including fashionable women who watched the proceedings through opera glasses.

Okay. And the case was so widely followed that wax figures of the accused were displayed in Madame Tussauds. Oh, wow.

I think, again, part of the reason why it captured the public's attention so much was, yes, because it was horrific, but also because of the fact that she was a wealthy woman. Yeah. This wasn't a... This doesn't happen to people of that standing.

No, of course, exactly. Like if it had been... I mean, how many people in Victorian England were starving just because of their circumstances? But the fact that this was a wealthy, middle-aged woman... Of means. Exactly.

Just made it all the more fascinating, I suppose, to onlookers. The defence team, which was led by a Mr Edward Clarke, argued that Harriet's death was not the result of malicious intent, but rather her own refusal to eat. Of course it was.

Shut up. Yeah. They claimed that Harriet had a mental instability, suggesting she suffered from alcoholism and that her condition made her difficult to manage and led to her self-starvation.

Medical experts for the defence testified that Harriet also could have died from causes such as meningitis or tuberculosis, which would have given similar impact, apparently, to the body, if you say so. I just love the fact that, of course, oh, no, no, no, this woman's done it to herself. Of course.

The prosecution provided strong evidence that Harriet had been subjected to inhumane treatment and witnesses provided damning accounts of Harriet's treatment. So a maid that... They obviously did get servants at some point. Eventually.

A maid testified that Patrick Staunton had struck Harriet on more than one occasion and others had said that they had seen her as skeletal and sickly during her final days. Several witnesses also testified that Harriet was confined to a small room and subjected to physical abuse if she tried to leave. Wow.

So one question is... Why didn't you do anything about this in the first place or when you noticed it happening? Oh, so you've got your wife in this tiny room starving her and beating her. Oh, okay. Okay, cool.

Should we go to the drawing room? Yeah, exactly. It's fucking mad. Right, so on September the 17th, 1877, the jury found all four defendants guilty of Harriet's murder.

Lewis, Patrick and Elizabeth Staunton, along with Alice Rhodes, were initially sentenced to death by hanging. The public celebrated the verdict and large crowds gathered outside the court to cheer when the sentences were announced. The presiding judge, Sir Henry Hawkins, called the crime one of the most black and hideous he had ever encountered and emphasised the incredible cruelty and barbarity of those involved.

It is barbaric. It is. Now... Oh, no.

That's it, finished. Story's done now, right? Oh, no. Unfortunately not.

Now what? So... Despite being found guilty and sentenced to death, there was a shift in opinion after the trial, resulting in over 700 physicians signing a letter published in The Lancet protesting that the expert medical evidence had been ignored and the trial had been unfair. Really? Apparently. That's a lot of people.

700. That is a lot. The doctors argued that the medical evidence suggested a different cause of death and raised concerns about how the trial was handled.

This medical controversy was one of the main factors that led to a review of the case. It claimed that Harriet's mental instability and refusal to eat, exacerbated by her alleged alcoholism, were the real causes of her malnourishment and eventual death. But surely, I suppose maybe of the time, but you can see alcohol abuse in the brain, can't you? And obviously in the liver and everything.

So... I just... What confuses me is that like, if it had been like, yeah, as you say, if her brain had been completely mangled or whatever, because of like anything, lesions or an illness of some sort, not necessarily just alcoholism, but... Then I could kind of go, okay, fine. Fair. Like medical professionals... There's a benefit of a doubt here, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it's a bit like, what medical professional looks at that and goes, oh, that's obviously... Well, she's starved herself and she's obviously got some other issue. Well, 700 of them. But it's just baffling.

That's mad. It's, yeah. So, the case attracted significant public attention with widespread sympathy for Harriet's story.

However, there was also a growing movement advocating for the defendants. Novelist Charles Reid led a campaign protesting the harshness of the verdict, arguing that there had been a miscarriage of justice. And this outcry, combined with the medical protests and allegations of judicial bias, led to pressure on the authorities to reconsider the case.

As a result, the Home Secretary of the time reviewed the case and the sentences of all four accused and convicted were altered. The death sentences were commuted to life imprisonment and Alice Rhodes was pardoned early after the conviction. What? But she lived there.

Yeah, she was pardoned completely. She had nothing to do with her. She fucking lived there.

She lived there. She was sleeping with the woman's wife. The woman's wife.

The woman's wife. Not that that's weird, but the woman's husband. She was having an ongoing open affair with Mr Staunton.

If it was just guilty by association, surely. Yeah. She did absolutely nothing.

But she's, no, she's been acquitted. It's fine. Oh, for fuck's sake.

So, what happened to them? Alice Rhodes was pardoned and released soon after the second trial, as the evidence against her was considered to be insufficient. Despite her involvement with Lewis Stanton and the surrounding scandal, she did not serve a long prison term at all and continued her life and remained largely out of the public eye. Elizabeth Staunton, so Patrick's wife, served only a few years of her life sentence and she was released in 1883 when she then changed her name.

After her release, she reportedly secured a very well-paying position somewhere else, which allowed her to move on with her life and leave all this nonsense behind her. So, good for you. Great.

Good for you, Lizzie. Fucking what to do. Lewis Staunton was released from prison in 1897 after serving 20 years.

Even after his release, he continued to protest his innocence. Once he was freed, he emigrated to Australia where he remarried and established a business and he lived the remainder of his life there passing away in 1934. Hopefully, it was painful.

And then Patrick Staunton, Lewis's younger brother, he died in prison but very early on into his sentence and an exact date of his death is unknown. But by the sounds of it, it was very early into the prison sentence. But yeah, that is the horrible, horrible case.

Poor Harriet. Of Harriet Staunton. Also known as the Penj Mystery, but I don't really know what's the... A fucking mystery, is it? A mystery.

But yeah. Oh, that's so awful. It's not a nice one.

I just can't get my head around... I know that there's the whole thing of like behind closed doors and all the rest of it, but like if they've got witnesses saying that they saw her being treated this way, like why did no one say anything? But even like the amount of people that saw her at the train station at the end of her life, like that final time. Yeah. And the doctor who went to see her on the day that she died.

You're not calling the police or the medical examiner or anyone? Has to be Casablanca or whatever his name is. Casablanca. Casablanca.

Yeah. I mean, thank God for him, eh? Well, exactly. But it's just, yeah.

It's not fun. Just, yeah. I mean, she had just... Just leave her alone.

I know. Just leave her alone. I know.

It's not, it's not nice. And I just, it just kills me that Mrs. Butterfield. Yeah.

Just... That poor woman. She tried everything she could to protect her daughter and in the end, this dickhead of a man manipulated her. And it was all for money.

Yeah. It's all just for the... Ugh, men. I know.

And Alice. Fucking Alice. But also it's just, it's the concept of, because I'm with you.

I thought at the time when I was researching it, I was a bit like, it seems weird that he's not going to take his son and look after his son. But I do think that there was probably... There was like a misconception that it's like, yeah. Well, there's something wrong with her.

Yeah, exactly. I think it's like, if it had been Alice's son, it would have been a completely different story. But it's just, and then like, I know that they took the baby in under a different name, but like, why was nothing... Right at the end.

But yeah, where was the investigation into who were the parents and... And why had that baby, the baby's got signs of malnutrition and abuse, but I know it's 1870s and whatever, but it's just, it's not... I hate people. Yeah. That's one thing I've learned from doing this podcast.

People are the worst. I didn't like people to start with, and now I feel like I dislike them. Do you know the people I do like though? Travers.

I do like Travers. I like Travers. I like you.

Oh, I like you as well. That's about it. Yeah, I think that's fair, mate.

I like my mum. Do you want to list off some more people you like? No, that's it. That's the end of the list.

Fair. What about Nan? Oh, obviously. Obviously.

The GB. Oh, GB. She's the best.

I love a bit of GB. She's the best. Oh, that was a thing that we were going to do.

Are you going to... You messaged me being like, oh, I've got to do a massive feedback and fuck ups. Yeah. Yeah.

There's... Well, we can argue about this off air. I don't mind doing it. But I thought we were potentially going to save it.

We can save it. For the soon to be announced and potentially launched Patreon. Do you want... Shall we announce it? Because it's... We're going to start a Patreon.

Yay! Announced! Announced. We're going to ask you for money. No, we are.

We are starting a Patreon. Oh, we can save it for Patreon. Yeah, only because... Well, one, I can go into a lot more detail personally.

Yeah. And if you're paying for my private details, then good for you. I don't give that away for free.

But also, it's quite a lot to alter from an episode. Should we just give... Oh, we're going to have to give some sort of overview now because I've started it. It's about... So it's Bindon and Dart and a familial connection that might have got overlooked in the original phone call with GB.

GB was not forthcoming and... Turned out incorrect. It turns out if you speak to her kids, then you get a lot more details, a lot more story. And there's, yeah, there's a lot more, there's a lot more, yeah, personal detail.

Nice. I can share about that. Well, we'll put it on the Patreon when that launches.

We are aiming, it will probably end up being a new year thing. I think so. And I think that feels nice anyway.

It does. It does indeed. New year, new avenue.

Well, exactly. There we go. We've got some other fun stuff coming.

There'll be more of us. I mean, you're having a hard time wrangling me to do this. So good luck to you.

I feel like what I'm going to do is I will just do all of the work for the Patreon and then just pay you to turn up. Yeah, I could be on board with that. I mean, you are the talent.

We've regularly said it. So that'll be fine. There's literally tens of Trevors crying that it wasn't my story week.

There are. There are. There are tens of them.

Tens of them. But on that note, lovely Trevors, we love you. We see you.

Thank you so much for following the podcast and all of that. But if a few more of you could maybe come and join us over on Instagram, that would be quite fun. Rachel's really, really, really invested about the Instagram numbers.

I'm just I just don't understand. So I don't get it. But I mean, to be fair, it's all it could also be the quality of the posting because I have been lurked on that when I had to do it in an emergency scenario the other week and just had to edit the caption about 14 times because I just wrote utter lies in it.

Listen to this where I talk. No, listen to this where we talk. No, none of that's true, Han.

Try again. I just love the fact that it was like I messaged you going, shit, I've not done the Instagram. Well, but the fact that it was what, 5pm and I hadn't noticed either.

Yeah, I know. Carrying on with our lives. Fairly busy and important people.

But yeah, come and join us on Instagram. If you search for Sinister South, you'll find us. We do also have a website.

We do have a website that has the cases up there. And we have an email. We do have an email.

What's the email? SinisterSouthPodcast.gmail.com Don't come for me. I wasn't coming for you. I was just genuinely like I couldn't remember it.

The website is SinisterSouthPod.co.uk So you can come and find us on there. There is a TikTok. Don't bother.

I've not done anything with it. I don't understand it. I try so hard to understand TikTok.

But like, I am one of those nanas who still does like, I'll watch reels on Facebook. Like it's one of them. It's just, yeah, it's ridiculous.

But yeah, there is a TikTok. If anyone is interested in us being on TikTok, let me know and I'll try and get some enthusiasm for it. But otherwise, it will just sit there.

Who knows? One day. One day. I think that's about it.

Leave us a nice review. Yeah. They do go really far.

They do. They do help a lot. We'd love some more ratings and some reviews.

Only the nice things, obviously. And those of you that are already very active in the Instagram world for us. Thank you.

I don't think that by Rachel begging for more followers, we don't see you and appreciate you. We see you. We appreciate and we love you.

That's what I was saying. You're always going to be the OGs. I just, yeah, exactly.

I just would like some Russian bots or something. How do we buy followers? You would think I would know that working in marketing, wouldn't you? No. Yeah.

So I think that's it, really. Yeah. Is that it for the episode? Okay, babe.

And we'll do your episode next week. Who knows? Maybe. I will wrangle her, Travis.

Don't worry. It will happen. Even if I have to end up finishing it for her and just going, read it.

Absolutely not. Maybe. Right.

We love you. We do. And we'll see you later.

I love you and goodbye. Bye-bye.