Cult of Control Maoism, Manipulation and Modern Slavery in Lambeth

Episode 2! After some debate over whether Hannah is secretly joining a Juice Plus cult, we're diving into a case that's as shocking as it is heartbreaking: The Lambeth Slavery Case.

This week, we're unravelling the story of Aravindan Balakrishnan - better known as "Comrade Bala" and his radical Maoist cult that turned into a house of manipulation and mind control in Brixton South London. For over three decades, three women lived under his psychological grip, isolated from the world, and subjected to cruelty disguised as ideology.

We explore how political ideals spiralled into paranoid, control and abuse, the bravery it took to break free, and the system that allowed this to happen for so long. It's a story of strength, resilience and the ultimate fight for freedom.

Sources in this episode include:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambeth_slavery_case

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/jan/27/the-cult-next-door-review-tracing-an-extraordinary-case-of-slavery-in-south-london

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/25/slavery-london

https://www.channel4.com/news/slave-house-couple-lambeth-leaders-1970s-political-cult

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/london-slaves-case-the-maoist-past-of-comrade-bala-and-his-wife-the-couple-suspected-of-holding-three-women-against-their-will-in-lambeth-8963236.html

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/the-cult-next-door-the-moaist-cult-leader-who-kept-3-women-prisoner-in-brixton-for-30-years_uk_5887517be4b0f94bb304fded

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyEs1Gg_SF0

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-25066006

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/news/lambeth-slavery-case/

Produced and hosted by Hannah Williams & Rachel Baines
Mixed & edited by Purple Waves Sound (A.k.a Will)

Thanks for tuning in! If you loved diving into the dark corners of South London with us, don't forget to hit that subscribe button to never miss an episode of "Sinister South."

Also, follow us on Instagram @SinisterSouthPodcast for sneak peeks, behind-the-scenes content, and more cheeky banter, or www.sinistersouthpod.co.uk. Remember, every crime tells a story... and South is the best side of the river...

Produced and hosted by Hannah Williams & Rachel Baines
Mixed & edited by Purple Waves Sound (A.K.A Will)

Transcript

Lambeth Slavery Case

Hello. Hi. I'm Rachel.

I'm Hannah and this is the Sinister South podcast. Don't step on my lines. I'm so sorry I was about to jump in.

Happy new blooded year. Same old cut me out, delete my line, whatever. Is it even recording me? Yes it is.

Listeners, you might never hear from me again. Rachel's got an agenda. Anyhow, this is Sinister South, a podcast all about true crime and untoward happenings in the south of London.

Well done. I'm very sorry. I forgot myself.

I'm really sorry. It's been a while. We've just said it's been a while since we've recorded and I've completely forgotten all etiquette.

You're telling the story. I know. I do the intro.

I know. I know. I know.

I'm so sorry. Shut up anyway. How are you? Better now that I'm not dying.

I was, as the listeners may have seen, you were really low key about it. I was. I don't need people.

Do you know what I mean? When I'm ill, I just don't need people. You shunned any sympathy. I really did.

I really did. I'm just a brave, brave little soldier who did not write an entire version of Twosnut before Christmas on a professional networking site. You're welcome, LinkedIn.

You are welcome. Yeah, no, I'm all right. I had flu.

I had laryngitis. It was horrible. But I have since learnt that so did many, many other people.

It did. I'm like honestly so grateful that, I mean, considering the amount I'm around you and the amount that I just kiss your children directly in their mouths. Well, I actually think, right, I think that the last time we recorded where we were like, Happy New Year, but not really, because we might be dead.

Yeah, that one. We recorded that day and the next day I started feeling dodgy. So I'm really lucky.

So many people around me were like, all right, that's it. One person's down. I know people that are still, like that had the flu symptoms, didn't go to laryngitis, but got other things.

And like someone I know had fluid just pouring out of their ear. I know. That's not what you want.

We say with the little bunny ears. I've got to be careful because apparently he now. Yeah, now he can just put in fucking editor's notes all over the place.

Inserts his own bloody voice into our episodes. Fine. We've got to be involved.

But yeah, no, I'm all right, mate. New year. Not so new me.

As we saw this morning, I've bought two new diaries, assuming that they will do something for my life. It's not just that they're two new diaries. Like many people might be currently picturing, you know, a five even or even smaller like a pocketbook kind of calendar, week to view calendar kind of diary.

These are fucking huge. They are. They're like bibles.

It's like you've bought yourself two different versions of the Bible. That is exactly what they look like. If you walked up to someone's front door, they would not answer the bell to you.

A thousand percent. A thousand percent. Yeah.

Can I take a moment of your time? Just to talk to you about my organised chaos. Yeah. Well, look, do you know what? I've realised now, 2025 is going to be the year where I'm just realistic.

And we all know that I am a complete and utter dumpster fire of a human who thinks that things will be solved by writing lists. OK. I wouldn't mind if you actually did it.

I know. But this isn't even that far. This is the idea of list writing makes you feel better.

So you put your money where your mouth is and you buy different places for different lists to live. And then in I bet you two weeks time tops, I'll be in this tiny shed. We'll be working together and you'll be like, I don't know what I'm going to be doing.

I don't know what I'm doing. What? When? Who? Where? Why? Which company? Which client? Who said this? And I'll be like, do you want to shout at me and I'll write you a list? And I end up fucking writing you a list that I then email you. I know.

Here's your list. I think what it is, right, is that because I've got colour coded it. Good luck.

My thing is right. So I've got a Trello for work. Right.

And I've been really good at filling in the Trello of the things that I need to do, the things I'm giving other people to do. My sister in law. Hello.

And a foliage. Yeah, that's a call back to our lovely wreath making. But yeah, I've been really organised with it.

But what I've realised is I write the list. And in my mind, that means that those jobs are done. Right.

I don't ever go back to the list. I put them all on the list. That's fine.

Now I know what I've got to do and what I will not be doing, apparently. So, yeah, basically, there's no hope for me. I've given up trying.

It's fine. Happy New Year. Happy New Year.

I'm also really dreading, like, I've got a birthday this month and I was talking to my counsellor because yes, guys, I have a counsellor. Jesus. I promise to God I don't know what she does.

She comes in and she'll go, morning, Rachel. And then I sit down and she goes, how are you? And the next hour is just. It should be.

Yeah, I know. But like, Lisa, if you're listening, I'm really sorry. I don't really know what I'm doing.

But apparently trauma dumping without realising. But no, I was saying this. There's a list of my traumas.

Now they're written down. They no longer exist. No, I was saying to my counsellor, I seem to have got this weird fascination.

So I'm going to be 36 this month. First of all, January birthdays are shit. Yeah, they suck.

Nobody likes them. Not even the people whose birthdays they are. But no, I'm not going to rehab my birthday in June because no fucker will remember.

I'll forget. And then I won't get any presents anyway. But yeah, I've got a birthday coming up and I'm going to be 36.

I'm now starting the slow decline towards being 40. And apparently what we have discovered in my counselling sessions is that I am apparently shit scared of turning 40. No idea why.

No idea why. So random. Like, I don't know.

I'm not saying like, oh, I'm like, really happy about ageing. Yeah. There's there's different parts of it that I'm an incredibly vain human being.

I don't know if anyone's realised. But do not perceive me. So there's definitely, you know, I'll have a facelift at some point.

I'm going to come to you for tips on getting Botox. I can't do them. No, no.

I need to know your Botox person for these. Because what's this? It's not a visual medium, but I am scrunching my face up in a really attractive way. And it's fine.

And she's cute. She hasn't stopped. It's really difficult to stop what you've started.

But the actual like numbers, the actual like 35, 36, 40 doesn't have any effect on me whatsoever. I don't know. I just I don't know what it is.

I think it's just that like I kind of go, well, if you're 40, then like you've got to be a proper, proper adult, right? And I've got two kids and a mortgage. What more do you fucking want? I don't feel like an adult. Like there's no other responsibility.

What would change things? Chickens. Chickens. Right.

Good to know. At least that's birthday present idea sort of. Please get me a chicken.

I'm not going to get you a chicken. I'm going to get you four chickens. I'm terrified of birds.

I don't know. It will be the greatest day of my life. But aging is a privilege.

I know. I know. So many people don't get to do it.

Yeah. Like every person we talk about in this fucking podcast. True.

True. Maybe it's something that instead of just jumping onto Lisa, maybe I should ask her to help me figure out how to deal with this. Maybe that's maybe that'll be growth.

Next week listeners, I'll tell you that actually fixed it. I'm really fine about being 40 as well. Just totally string me.

This is what we need to do. Also, what I love is that I'm so paranoid about being 40. I'm 36 this month.

I've still got four years, unlike my husband, who is one step closer to the grave. With every editor's note. That hammer is slowly being moved into the kitchen.

I think my hearing. I got that. Aging is a privilege.

I can't see your hair anymore. What a gift. And my right hip hurts.

My left knee hurts. My left shoulder gets funny in bed. I don't know if I get too cold.

My ring finger. My ring finger and my little finger on both hands. Mine go numb like that.

This is fun. Anyway, how are you younger than you? Oh, God, yeah, that's true. I know.

Anyway, aging is a privilege. Fine. How am I? I'm good.

I had a festive period. That was great. Nice.

That sounds like I was declaring my cycle. No, it was the first of period to end all. No, it was.

In my head, it's just your sanitary towels and your tough ones having little Christmas hats on them. It's like, la, la, la, la. Little bells, actually.

Ding, dong, ding, dong. What on the string? I'm so glad it's not a visual podcast. No one needs to see the dance I just did.

But you know what, mate? It's going to live right through my head forever. It's good to see that 2025 is no different. Anyhow, there was Christmas.

There was fun and laughter. There was a lot of wine, which was nice. And then by the 28th, I was fucking over it.

My tree came down first thing in the morning on the 28th. I was like, right, dumb. Off it goes.

Bye. See ya. Enough of you now.

That was it. And I left. What was it? I'd left something out by mistake.

And I was sitting on the sofa and I saw it. And it was like, which was like, whoa, that kind of sped across the living room. Not that it's that big.

But I had to put on my roller skates. I had to change full speed. Oh, God, this is this is a show of Shackleton scenario.

Anyway, there was like, I don't know, a bauble or something that was on the shelf. And I was like, whoa, Christmas is done. But yes, highlights include a beautiful pair of new trainers from my mother, which I am obsessed with.

And probably talking of aging, the most practical and wonderful gift I've ever received is such a sign of we're not the wild child party animal. We thought we were anymore, are we? I've got a dressing gown from my gran. And when I tell you it's a daily battle to take that thing off.

And I'm counting the hours until I can put it back on. I don't blame you. I do not blame you.

I am well practiced in the art of working from the tiny shed in a lounge trouser rather than a proper trouser, pajamas, basically. So yeah, I hear you on the dressing gown. I just get too warm in them.

I'm all right with like a hoodie. And I could probably do like one of those hoodie things. But yeah, a dressing gown, I just sort of get myself all tangled up.

And they also didn't see that. Okay, fine. Mine being tangled in the rope of a dressing gown.

That's very lovely. That's from GB, right? Yeah, not from the GB. Plus, yeah, all good.

New Year was relatively tame. Yeah. Richard and I drank Prosecco in the dining room for a change rather than the living room.

Nice. Always good to change things up a bit. And then watched a bit of Hootenanny.

Yep. Sent some texts round. Yep.

Went to bed. Nice. Lovely stuff.

We did pretty much the same, although I did try to trick my children into thinking that it was midnight at 10. Forgetting that the big one now knows how to tell the time, which is really got one over on you. She has got one over on me.

She was like, mum, it's half past ten. I was like, it's midnight. It's half past ten.

It's not. And then she got her tablet went, it's half past ten. Fine, you're up until midnight then.

Yeah, but we just had a quiet one in as well. But you and I had a little friend date, which is lovely. Always nice to go out.

We went for dinner. Lovely, lovely. Tatted about not seeing each other for two weeks.

Oh, my God. And then went to the pub and spoke exclusively for about half an hour about intrusive thoughts. Have you ever had this one? What about this one? What's your latest one? What's the newest one that's like crept up on you like touching the oven? Or if I'm like touching the base of the inside of a frying pan, touch it.

No. I've had that one before, but mainly when there's something in it. So it's like I'm making pancakes or something and like just pick it up and over.

Why do I need a spatula? Because you will burn your hands because you are a small delicate flower. Yeah, it was fun. Really all around touching hot things.

But no, the date was lovely. It was good. It was very good.

It was the point when they called last orders and we were like, hang on. What? Are we still out? What's going on? What is this? Yeah, it was lovely. And now back to reality with a bump.

Boom. Back at work. I haven't found it too bad.

I mean, like, yeah, work is busy and stressful, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Change is afoot yet again. But I really do just.

I love a routine. Yeah, I get back to normal. I'm with you.

I did get to a point over like in between Christmas and New Year when I was feeling much better and will have come down with it. There was a point where I was just like, I can't just sit here and stare at the telly with the kids anymore. Like I took them out and we did things or whatever.

But like whenever I was back and at home and because he was confined to the bedroom and I was sleeping on the sofa bed because I didn't want his germs. I may have given them to him. I don't want them back.

I was just like, what am I going to do? So I found myself like writing social media posts in my bed on like the 28th. Just like, la, la, la, la. Worky, worky, work, work.

Because that is just how exciting I am. Never change. Do you want some feedback on episode one of season two? Gone.

So I was on my walk today and my headphones announced notification from shall I read it? And I sometimes I say yes, sometimes I say no. Get on with what I'm listening to. Get some steps in, mate.

Anyway, it was from, it's text from mummy. And I was like, read it. But it must have, it started to read it and then something must have interrupted it.

I don't know. It just said from mummy, I'm struggling with this episode. I can't get through it.

I was like, oh, OK. Fucking rude. Thanks for the constructive criticism there, mother.

Wonderful. Anyway, I got back here from my walk and went to reply to being like, oh, geez, what was it? And I know it cut her off. I just keep crying.

It's really good. Oh, I can't get through it. I know I'm really struggling with the episode.

Well, then we got a lovely one from Matt on Instagram. He was like back in episode as always. Hey, cheers, mate.

Nobody. I know if people have heard Young Williams, little editor's note in the Damalela Taylor episode, all I'm going to say is don't encourage him. We don't need.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's see those figures first. Let's just see if we've got another martianist in our hands first.

We are, we are downloading. Easy there, girl. Download number fours.

It's fine. I've got a fun case for us today. You know how we've just done Child Death? Oh, yeah.

Now I figured we'd move something a little bit more lighthearted and do some modern day slavery. Party party. Exactly.

Just for you. Just for you. Yeah.

So today I'm going to tell you about one of the most notorious slavery cases that I think the UK has seen in a long, long, long time. And we won't go into the fact that we've whitewashed history in the UK. We did have to lose it here anyway.

Moving on. I think that covers us politically. Well done.

Yeah, thanks. Done. I've been trying to get a little bit more succinct at caveating.

Just say it really quickly and quietly and it's just like done. No. So today I am going to be talking about the Lambeth slavery case, which is also known by a few other names, which will come to as I go through the episode.

But I'm getting comfy. Yeah. Get yourself comfy.

Get settled in because there's a lot to chat about today. So the year is 2013 and we're in an ordinary neighborhood in Lambeth, South London, where the houses are unassuming and the streets are perfectly normal. But it's here where the police uncovered one of the most extraordinary cases of modern slavery in the UK.

A story rooted in a radical political group that had transformed into a dark and controlling cult, trapping its followers for over 30 years. Today, we're looking into the Lambeth slavery case, which involved the liberation of three women who had endured decades of psychological abuse and physical isolation under the coercive control of their captor, Aravindan Balakrishnan, known as Comrade Bala. His wife, Chanda, was also involved in maintaining the rigid cult-like structure of their household.

And the exposure of this case revealed not only the disturbing methods of Balakrishnan's Maoist-inspired manipulation, but also the lives shaped by a combination of political ideology and an unyielding, insidious cruelty. Got some words in there. I really did.

I did. That's good. Pat myself on the back.

Well done me. Well done. Right.

So who was Aravindan Balakrishnan? Aravindan Balakrishnan was born in Kerala, India in 1942, the son of a soldier who migrated at the age of 10 to Singapore, which was then in British Malaya, which is now Malaysia. He was a student at the Raffles Institution, which was the oldest school in the country and incredibly prestigious. The school is notable for having produced 96 presidents' scholars, and this is an academic scholarship awarded by the government of Singapore.

While at Raffles Institution and later the University of Singapore, Balakrishnan was described as a quiet chap, but he became increasingly politically active. And in 1960, Balakrishnan gained his Singaporean citizenship, but due in part to his belief that he would have been imprisoned in Singapore due to his political beliefs, he emigrated to the UK in 1963 on a... So he became really political. He was in Singapore.

He went to school there, to the Eton. He was fine, whatever. He got citizenship, but is then becoming increasingly political with potentially opposing views to what the government had.

Exactly that. Yeah. So even though he's like, right, I could stay here.

I'm not going to, because I think that they're going to not like the things I'm saying. Fine, fine. So in 1963, he emigrated to the UK on a British council scholarship to study at LSE, which is the London School of Economics.

And in 1971, he married his wife, Chandra. Over the years, he built up a following by giving lectures and staging sit-ins and protests related to communism. He was a regular attendee at London Demonstrations, where he waved banners depicting Chinese leader Mao Zedong and addressed the crowds.

In 1974, Balakrishnan had started calling himself Comrade Bala, and he and a small group of followers were expelled from the Communist Party of England. You know, when you kind of have people who do this, like you're in a group that's fairly, like, wild anyway, and then it's like, oh, no, no, no. I want to be wilder than the wild one.

Yeah. But it's also like when the wild ones go, oh, no, maybe, maybe you're not for us. I mean, we're mad, but you.

Yeah, it's just a bit like, OK. His removal from the Communist Party of England was attributed to, and I quote, conspiratorial and split-ist activities. And his rejection of the party's orthodox principles.

Balakrishnan criticized the party's leadership as social fascists, claiming that they were undermining the proletarian movement. And this expulsion marked a really pivotal moment for Balakrishnan, who then created his own group, which had the very snappy title of the Workers Institute of Marxism-Leninism-Mao Zedong thought. OK, yeah, there we go.

Nice and nice and to the point. Did you write that? Yeah, apparently. So here he began to build a tightly controlled collective that operated predominantly in secrecy and isolation.

And this was so that he could develop his extremist Maoist inspired ideology without anyone telling him to back off, basically. It's very scary. Balakrishnan was described by those who encountered him as a mesmerizing speaker with an intense presence that seemed to transcend his small stature.

Dudley Heslop, who attended some of his lectures in the 1970s, remembers him as a master of words and a giant when he spoke despite only being five foot four. He had a persuasive and captivating way with words. They left an indelible impression on you.

His talent for rhetoric allowed him to advocate for radical world views. Balakrishnan and his followers, largely young disillusioned activists, attempted to create revolutionary communities within working class areas in South London, though he discouraged them from joining trade unions, dismissing them as tools of the imperialist bourgeoisie. So, yeah, we've got loads of this communist rhetoric, Marxism, Leninism, Maoist stuff going on.

And again, like when when the extreme group decide you're too extreme for them, his leadership soon alienated quite a lot of his followers who were slightly more moderate. And over time, he attracted a really core group of about 10 female members who became 100 percent completely dependent upon him. The Insular Collective established itself in Brixton under the banner of the Workers Institute, building a Mao Zedong memorial centre where they lived, worked and followed Balakrishnan's rigid rules and his increasingly mystical claims.

The commune itself, with its bold banners and posters of Mao Zedong on display, attracted a small but dedicated following, primarily students from Malaysia and Singapore. According to Dudley Heslop, the commune had a sense of allure and its messages like store grain everywhere conveyed a disciplined revolutionary commitment to self sufficiency and loyalty to Maoist doctrine. Now, to me, store grain everywhere, I'm just thinking there's going to be a lot of mice, a lot of mice.

Do you want ants? Get ants. As his control deepened, Balakrishnan convinced followers that he held powers over natural forces and could manipulate life and death. So we're getting proper into the cult leader.

Now, this is the bit that always fascinates me. It's like how you go from this person speaking in front of all these other people has views that I agree with. I agree with everything this person is saying.

I follow them. Fine. I'm into them.

Fine. Right. Okay.

I believe in everything. I'm really the work ethic. Whatever.

I'm in. I'm in. I'm in.

And you get so far in that you miss the point where they're like, do you know I can control the weather? And you're like, okay, well, that makes sense. Yeah, sure. That switch almost seems like that switch that gets flipped.

It's like all of a sudden you've gone from. Yeah. And an alignment of beliefs to.

Yep. Whatever you say. I'll suspend my belief in anything because as long as it's from you, I don't I don't care what it is.

It's mind boggling. I've always found this about any cults that you know, when you look at anything like there's I can't remember the name of it, but there's a cult in the States. And they had this whole thing was like, it's definitely the world's definitely going to end on this day.

And everyone was really into it. And then the next day, they were still here. And they're like, oh, it's fine.

It just just it's just no, it's not happening. It's going to happen another day. But you've just been working.

But they all kind of go through that, don't they? Even like, is it Jonestown? Yeah. Oh, Waco. Waco.

Yeah. And all of that. Like, hang on.

How can something that you say like, we've been preparing for this for ages. Yeah. Well, preparing for whatever.

And then something comes in and knocks it sideways. And we're like, just staunchly. Yeah.

Believing. No, that was fine. That's what's meant to have happened.

Yeah. I mean, this is why I feel like if I were to become a cult leader, which we've all realized is not going to happen. I'm more likely to.

But if I were, I would just be like, I'm not going to put a date to anything. That's going to be like some sort of developer. I do my project management.

Six weeks, maybe, maybe. Well, more, more like nine. Potentially, potentially 18.

18 what? Just 18. What's over there, shiny. Oh, dear.

But yes, so we're now at the point where he's decided to start telling his followers that he can manipulate life and death and hold powers over natural forces. He also invented an entity that he called Jackie. And Jackie is an acronym for Jehovah, Allah, Christ, Krishna and immortal is warren.

Jackie, Jackie, it's me, Jackie. Evening, Jackie. Lovely bit of squirrel.

Wrong character. Oh, no, it's not. Yeah, it is.

Lovely bit of squirrel as the dad. I don't watch it anyway. Jackie, he described Jackie as an omniscient and malevolent machine capable of monitoring all thoughts and controlling all minds.

Oh, so yeah, we got to be careful of Jackie. So I've spoken a bit already in this very chaotic episode about Mao Zedong and Maoist teachings. So I thought it was probably worth putting in a little section of the episode, which is called What on Earth and Maoist Teachings and Beliefs Anyway.

Yeah, sorry. That's all right. I was uncomfortable.

That's fine. Are you comfortable now? Yes, I'm ready for my lesson. There we go.

Maoism named after Chinese leader Mao Zedong combines Marxist-Leninist principles with a focus on the peasantry, rural revolution and guerrilla warfare. Okay. Unlike traditional Marxism, which centers on the industrial proletariat, Maoism champions the rural peasants as the revolutionary force, especially in societies with large, agrarian populations, which is why it was very popular in China.

Maoist ideology supports a protracted people's war, where revolution begins in the countryside and eventually encircles and overtakes the cities. So they're coming from the outside to take over the centers of industry, basically. Essential to Maoism is the mass line, and this is a principle that calls for the Communist Party to listen to the needs and perspectives of the people, synthesize these into policies and return them to the masses.

Maoists believe the need for a constant cultural revolution to prevent capitalist tendencies from resurfacing and to root out revisionist elements within the party or society that could undermine the revolution. This belief led to the Cultural Revolution in China, which was a period of really intense upheaval, as Mao sought to maintain his ideology through social and cultural transformation. For Balakrishnan, Maoism was more than just a political ideology.

Can I ask a question? You can. But I might want Cartel. Okay, go on.

So is it bad? I think like, okay, so I think on paper, no, written down as an ideology. Yeah, I'm not saying like... It's completely and utterly unsustainable, and it would never really happen. It's the same with Marxist industrial.

Like, here's Rachel coming out with her, like, I'm pro-capitalism. But it's very similar to the Marxist industrial socialism or communism in the fact that, like, it's never going to work. Human nature is such that we won't allow it to work.

We have sort of like competition built into us. So the concept of like, oh, well, I'm as equal as you as equal as you as equal as you. It's all very lovely.

But when you actually give it to dickhead humans, we won't ever follow it. I think where it goes bad is that when you have people like Mao, they kind of, they use it as, or Stalin even, for the Marxist side of communism. They use it as an excuse and an explanation for why they are being absolute arseholes.

So it kind of, it's almost as if it gets its bad name from the people who are proposing it rather than actually from the concept of it. So the concept could be sound. The concept could be sound.

It just tends to be the people that fuck it up. Exactly. Which is the true of so many things in life.

At least that is what I remember from my A-level sociology, which as we all now know, I'm going to be 36 soon. So it was some time ago. I apologize if I have upset anybody by my little crib note.

So, yeah, so it's not bad on paper, but not particularly possible. So, yeah, for Balakrishnan Maoism was more than just a political ideology. He used it as a framework for control.

So, yeah. And merging it with his own authoritarian practices. He isolated his followers from society.

He demanded complete loyalty and created a worldview that demonized the outside world as fascist and corrupt. While Maoism in its original context was revolutionary, in Balakrishnan's cult, it became a tool for control manipulation and the psychological abuse of his followers. As the group became more isolated, Balakrishnan's teachings intensified.

And after Mao's death in 1976, he led his collective further into seclusion, building the Mao Zedong Memorial Centre in Brixton as both a tribute and a commune for his followers. The group practiced strict secrecy, avoiding any contact outside the cult, as Balakrishnan preached that the area was fraught with violence and danger. The memorial centre became a self-contained, tightly monitored commune where Balakrishnan's paranoia led him to control the minutia of members' lives.

Can I just say I love the word minutia? Oh, that's a brilliant one. Family members and outsiders were branded fascist agents and estranged as he tightened his hold over his followers, insisting that they follow his commands unquestioningly. While his followers initially saw him as a mentor and leader, they gradually became their captives.

They gradually became his captives, even if they weren't aware of him. In 1977, Balakrishnan's Singaporean citizenship was revoked. The Singaporean authorities viewed his group as a radical threat, so he technically predicted it when he left in the 60s.

Balakrishnan allegedly maintained ties with former Singaporean students, which led Singapore to accuse him of plotting to overthrow Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew. The police eventually raided the Brixton commune in 1978, but rather than disbanding, Balakrishnan's group went further underground. The remaining members moved frequently to avoid detection, convinced that they were constantly being monitored by oppressive forces outside the group.

So when did this start getting really dodgy, if we haven't already gone into the realms? Balakrishnan's leadership style was authoritarian and absolute, as we've already mentioned. But by 1979, the dynamics of his control had grown really disturbing. He began to sexually abuse female members in the commune, often using violence and psychological manipulation to maintain his dominance.

Some women were beaten in front of others as a form of public punishment and submission, which helped reinforce his power to the rest of the group. And Balakrishnan claimed that anyone who questioned or resisted him did so out of jealousy towards his chosen lover, casting his abuse as their fault. As Balakrishnan's authoritarian grip tightened, his psychological manipulation escalated, so he moved beyond the physical abuse into the realm of attempting to completely control his followers' minds.

They were subjected to an environment where fear, loyalty and belief in his supernatural powers became inextricable. Balakrishnan began to cultivate an almost godlike status within the commune, so very similar of a lot of cults, convincing his followers that he possessed mystical powers, and he moved from just being able to control the weather to being able to influence world events. He claimed that he was responsible for everything from local weather patterns to global political upheavals, and this became a really core aspect of the control that he had.

And basically is what made his followers the few of them that were left. Because this is the other thing, this wasn't a big group. I was about to ask how many were left by this point.

I'm not entirely sure I haven't written it down, but I know that by the end there were about ten. But we're only in 1979, this goes on for some time. But yeah, so this kind of supernatural element of his control was kind of what kept everybody dependent on him.

To reinforce his authority, as we said, we already spoke about this mysterious and omnipotent entity, Jackie. And Jackie was an all-seeing, all-knowing force that could monitor people's thoughts and actions and punish anyone who doubted or defied comrade Bala. The concept of Jackie was essentially there to create this kind of all-encompassing concept.

It's everyone, right? It's surveillance. It's how do we keep people thinking that they're being watched without having to watch them all the time. And basically the idea of it was to strip away any of his followers' sense of autonomy and privacy and all of that.

They're in this cult, they're following his teachings, he has access to every part of them at all times. Which was a really powerful, I know people that have had boyfriends like that. Yeah, there we have.

Yeah, and it's very simple, it is domestic violence in whatever way you go to. It's coercive control, it's all of those things. And it's what kept these intelligent people, because most of the people who are in the cult are students who came to the UK to study.

So they're not dumb people, they're not thick, they're intelligent, they've got these political ideals. That's what first attracted them to him. But this is what keeps them fearful of stepping out of line, so this is what keeps them there.

They believed that their thoughts alone could betray them to comrade Barla, so they kind of essentially... So you're not even thinking. Only the things that you're told you can think, which is just mad. And there was a huge amount of paranoia that ran through the group.

And even minor doubts or niggles in the back of your mind or anything like that were seen as really dangerous acts of rebellion. Balakrishnan's control extended even further than this, if that's possible. He restricted movement of the members, they were forbidden from going outside alone, they had to move in pairs at all times.

And he justified this by saying that Brixton and South London in general were notorious for violence. I don't know what he's talking about. We haven't made a podcast about this.

The truth is, however, that this was being used to maintain physical control over his followers and prevent any chance of escape or outside influence. Daily routines were really regimented and they were given incredibly strict schedules and chores that they had to fulfil. And all of this was kind of just to keep them submissive and obedient.

And any breach of the routines would result in harsh punishment, including public beatings, which were designed to reinforce his absolute authority. Balakrishnan cast himself to his followers as the source of both fear and salvation. So it's very kind of like Old Testament style.

And he exploited their loyalty to just retain that absolute command and control. He framed any outside relationships as corrupt and dangerous. He made sure that, as we mentioned before, all of anybody's relatives outside of the group were fascist agents who could not be trusted.

And they were essentially his followers were manipulated into a reality where only he could dictate the terms of their existence. What about his wife, I hear you say? What about his wife? I'm going to give you a bit of context about Chanda. So Chanda is Balakrishnan's wife.

Her name was Chandra Patney and she also went by the moniker of Comrade Chanda. She was originally from Tanzania and she met Balakrishnan in the 1970s through shared political circles. So she already had some of these leanings and beliefs.

Her background and early life were really hard to find anything out about. But there's lots about how she got into radical politics as she moved to the UK, where she became like really immersed in far left ideology. So in 1974, when Balakrishnan broke away from the Communist Party of England, Chandra became a founding member of his new organisation.

She was instrumental in the commune assisting with leadership and maintaining the day-to-day functioning of the group and acting as Balakrishnan's enforcer. Her loyalty was particularly evident during a police raid in 1978, which is when officers attempted to break up the commune's Brixton headquarters. And this was when it was all linked to the Singaporean president or prime minister.

During the struggle, Chandra reportedly sustained a serious injury and it's quoted that she nearly lost her right eye in her efforts to resist the authorities. The incident became part of the group's narrative of persecution and fuelled the belief that they were at war with the British fascist state. And yeah, she became just like this figure of like almost martyrdom, essentially.

So we're borrowing from lots of religious tropes now. So public opinion on Chandra is quite interesting because there's absolutely bucket loads about Balakrishnan. There is not that much about Chandra.

Lots of people kind of can't work out whether or not she was a victim, whether she's involved. I personally am leaning more towards the... No, she knew what she was doing. I don't know why, it's just the vibe I get.

Unlike other members, she never broke from the ideology or challenged the authority of her husband, even when he faced legal action, which we're getting to. So who were these cult members? Within the cult, there were 10 women who were central to the group and they were vulnerable, idealistic and intelligent individuals who were drawn into his orbit through the promises of revolutionary change. They endured physical and psychological abuse for decades within the commune and we're going to spend a little bit of time now understanding who some of these women were and how they ultimately broke free to bring about his downfall.

So, settle in. First one first is a lady called Katie Morgan Davis. Now Katie is possibly one of the most upsetting figures in the group.

She was born into the commune in 1983 and she was originally named Prem Malpindousi Davis and went by Prem or Rose. Katie was the biological daughter of Balakrishnan and Sharn Davis and we'll get on to who Sharn is in a minute. Though she was kept unaware of her true parentage and was told that she had absolutely no biological relatives whatsoever.

She didn't even know that Sharn was her mum. Nope. Nope.

She was raised entirely within the commune so her whole childhoods and her whole adolescence were spent in isolation without access to schooling, healthcare or any external interactions. She was taught to view the outside world as dangerous and hostile and her early life was characterised by essentially just deprivation. She was forbidden from attending school, seeing a doctor, she was taught to read and write within the confines of the cult and her world view was shaped entirely by Balakrishnan's teachings and fabricated narratives.

Any time she kind of displayed a curiosity about what was going on outside or any sort of form of independence, she was met with physical punishment. Katie is quoted as saying... In the later years of captivity, Katie began to show signs of serious illness which went ignored. Her symptoms included severe weight loss, extreme fatigue and weakness which are all classic indicators of untreated diabetes.

Members of the commune noticed that Katie's health was declining but Balakrishnan continued to deny her access to medical care saying that his authority and their adherence to the commune's lifestyle were sufficient enough. Is it a bit like if she's sick and dies, it's because she was questioning and curious, if she's sick and then makes a recovery, it's because I'm this amazing person. So basically he's a dick.

So Sharn Davis was an educated woman, I've put here, from a well-to-do Welsh family who joined Balakrishnan's commune in the mid-1970s. She was seen as intelligent and idealistic and she was originally drawn to his radical political views and she ended up dedicating her life and her finances to his cause. Sharn became one of his closest followers and for a period his romantic partner.

Her family however, so from what I could gather they were fairly close until she joined the cult, but her family saw her movement into the cult as just a tragic loss of her compassion and her vibrancy. And she was so completely loyal to Balakrishnan that she tried to escape but then returned of her own volition. So it was almost like she'd kind of gone, I'm gonna go, and then her own loyalty kind of pulled her back.

Yeah, so she went back and she was punished. I couldn't find out what that punishment was. In 1996 Sharn mysteriously fell from a window in the Commune's residence in Brixton.

She was found with severe injuries and remained in a coma for eight months. During this time Sharn's mum tried to speak to her daughter and was told by Commune members that she was in India and did not tell her about the accident. Oh my god, to ensure that she was isolated even then.

So they've taken her to hospital because she's in a coma but they've not told anyone in her family that she's in India, can't speak to her. The exact circumstances of her fall remain unknown but it's been speculated that it may have been related to an attempt to escape the Commune. Sharn unfortunately died as a result of her injuries from the fall in 1997 and Katie Sharn's daughter was only 14 when her mother died but as we said she didn't know that she was her biological daughter until many years later.

Josephine Herravel came from a well-known family with a remarkable history. She was the daughter of John Herravel who was a prominent World War II code breaker at Bletchley Park. He helped crack German codes and contributed to the Allied victory in World War II.

Josephine grew up in a really intellectual family. She was surrounded by family members who valued critical thinking and intellectual pursuits. She was a talented violinist and she studied music at the Royal College of Music in London.

But despite her privileged background and promising career in music, Josephine became disillusioned with mainstream society and was drawn to left-wing ideologies that promised social change, equality and justice. But she was kind of essentially looking for a way she wanted a better world to live in essentially. Her search for meaning and purpose led her to Balakrishnan and his teachings.

That's unfortunate, very unfortunate. She became captivated by his rhetoric and eventually joined his group and severed all ties with her family. Once she was inside the commune she adopted a new identity, Comrade Josie, and committed herself fully to the group's mission.

She became increasingly isolated like all the others. She followed the daily routines to the letter, did a load of ideological study and was the first one in to any of the teachings from Balakrishnan. She became one of Balakrishnan's most loyal followers.

Her loyalty remained intact even as he became increasingly abusive. She stated that he was like a father figure, a god almost. Aisha Wahhab, she came from Malaysia and moved to London as a student.

There's not a huge amount about Aisha. She'd been engaged to be married when she first found Balakrishnan's teachings. But upon meeting Balakrishnan and hearing his ideas, she abandoned her former life and fiancé.

And yes, she cut all ties again like the others. And then Oka Eng, who was also originally from Malaysia, she was a nurse by profession. She joined the commune and remained in London following his teachings.

And in 2001, Oka Eng suffered a serious head injury after hitting her head on a cupboard. No more detail was given, but the injury resulted in a stroke which left her in need of urgent medical care. But again, just like Katie, Balakrishnan forbade her medical treatment as she died the following day.

He did not inform Eng's family of her passing and arranged for her to be cremated without notifying her relatives. Her ashes were kept hidden in storage within London and when her family later attempted to recover her remains, the commune denied having them at all. Who's pricks, man? So what happened to this cult and why are we now talking about it? So in the 2000s, several events occurred which began to really destabilize the cult and set the stage for its eventual downfall.

Balakrishnan's grip on his followers started to kind of pull away from it a bit, mainly after Oka Eng and Shan. And also the way that they saw Katie being left to deal with medical issues. So there was a lot of this was around his refusal to allow them to have medical care that kind of stopped people from fully believing him.

It breaks the trance a bit, isn't it? This man doesn't actually care for us. Exactly. These people have fallen, they've hurt themselves, they're not any better.

How can he control life and death? Especially if she did just walk into a cupboard where it's a pure accident and you're still... She didn't do that because she was having impure thoughts. It's interesting about the timing. So I was going to say, because in 1997 we would have all of a sudden had a Labour government and would that have changed? And I think considering it was politically left-wing.

I don't think it was left-wing enough. No, obviously. Tony Blair's new Labour.

Things can only get better. We don't have the money. We probably do for dreams.

No, but then they didn't have contact with the outside world anyway, did they? So ignore me. That was a pointless interlude. It was a little foray into local history and politics.

Great. As the years passed, health issues among the cult members became more prevalent. And when Katie started experiencing the severe symptoms of her diabetes, this was kind of when people started to be like, you don't have superpowers.

You can't safeguard us. We're not being looked after. So, for example, Josephine Heravel, who she had become increasingly concerned about Katie's condition.

And although she was deeply loyal to Balakrishnan, her worry for Katie's safety and the potential consequences motivated her to act. So in October of 2013, Josephine took a step to break free from the control of the commune. She had seen a helpline number for the Freedom Charity on a television programme and secretly memorised it, knowing it might be the only chance to get help for herself, Katie and Aisha.

The Freedom Charity is dedicated to assisting victims of forced marriage and modern slavery, and Josephine believed they could provide a lifeline for the commune members. She made a covert call to the charity, revealing that she, Katie and Aisha had been held against their will in the commune for over 30 years. Recognising the urgency of the situation, Freedom Charity worked closely with the Met Police to verify Josephine's claims and gather information about their conditions.

The police then began a month-long undercover investigation to assess the situation and gain the trust of the women in order to facilitate their rescue. The investigation was led by the Met's Human Trafficking Unit. They meticulously gathered evidence and built a rapport with those commune members who were still there.

And this was really important because the women had lived in isolation for so long and they were understandably fearful about anyone outside. They're really distrusting, so they needed to spend quite a lot of time in making sure that they felt that they could trust them in order to prepare them for a safe exit from the commune without raising Balakrishnan's suspicions. On October 25, 2013, the police moved in to rescue the three women from the house in Peckford Place, Brixton, where they had been living in captivity.

The women were taken to a secure and safe location and provided with support and care to begin the long process of recovery and reintegration into society. The successful rescue operation exposed Balakrishnan's decades-long abuse and brought his cult to an end. Shortly after the rescue, Aravindan Balakrishnan and his wife, Chanda Patney, were arrested on charges related to forced labour, slavery and immigration offences.

Although the police initially arrested Chanda as well, she was eventually released due to a lack of evidence directly linking her to the abuse that the women lived under. Balakrishnan, however, faced numerous charges including false imprisonment, child cruelty, multiple counts of rape and physical assault. The details of Balakrishnan's abusive control and manipulative tactics shocked the public as the story unfolded, and it became clear that he had subjected his followers to psychological abuse, physical punishment and deprivation, and it drew significant media attention.

Mainly because it was this kind of ideological thing. There was the fear and the manipulation and all of that, but it had stemmed from this idea of a better world and a better place that kind of gripped everybody's imagination. In 2015, Balakrishnan stood trial, where he represented himself.

He attempted to defend his actions and his supposed supernatural powers. He defended his supernatural powers in court. Yeah, he did.

Man alive. Well, I think it's one of those things, isn't it? You've just got to double down. If you say a lie enough, you start believing it, right? She's got to double down on that and that is it now.

That's the truth now. He continued to make outlandish claims in court, such as taking responsibility for the 1986 Space Shuttle Challenger disaster. That was him.

Was it him? Yeah, yeah. Right. His mind control.

He did that. I'm fine. And insisting that his mystical force, Jackie, did influence global events.

He attempted to justify his control and manipulation, and this was seen as just like absolute nonsense by the court. The court also heard testimony from the survivors who were brave enough to come and face him again. That's incredible.

Yeah. Can you imagine 30 years under this man's control and then you've got to try and rewire your whole way of thinking? I don't know, can you? Well, it's yeah, it's just, ugh. Yeah, so the court had testimony from the survivors who described decades of emotional, physical and psychological abuse.

Balakrishnan was found guilty on multiple counts and was sentenced to 23 years in prison. He remained incarcerated until his death in 2022 from natural causes at the age of 81. So I wanted to end with just a little bit on where are they now.

So since her escape, Katie Morgan Davis has been outspoken about her experiences and she has shared her story everywhere. Yeah. On slavery, cults and coercive control.

And after her rescue is when she changed her name and this was part of her reclaiming who she was, her identity. She was diagnosed with untreated diabetes, which has had a significant impact on her health. She needed to catch up on basic social and practical skills.

Authorities noted that her communication abilities and general knowledge were equivalent to those of a young child and her practical skills needed substantial development. But today, Katie has made remarkable strides in rebuilding her life. She's enrolled in college.

She's got friends. She's becoming increasingly independent and she's dedicated to advocacy work, using her story to educate the public and authorities about the signs of psychological control and modern slavery. She also did a, she was in a documentary, which I believe is called The Cult Next Door.

And it was on BBC. I don't know if you can still see it, but it was. I remember watching it.

Yeah. In various interviews and media appearances, Katie's emphasized her determination to live a full life and has expressed forgiveness for her father, focusing on her journey of healing and resilience. And yeah, she's just she's just epic.

Josephine Heravelle struggled even after Bella Christian's arrest. She really struggled with conflicted feelings towards him. And sometimes she kind of flip-flopped between defending his actions and maintaining that he had been framed by the state and also you did the right thing.

Exactly. But yeah, she's she had years of difficulty disentangling herself from from this. She's worked to adjust to life outside of the commune, though she's apparently struggled with this quite a lot.

She continues to grapple with the lasting effects of the indoctrination and her public appearances and statements have been really limited. But her role in initiating the call for help has been widely commended. Yes.

Exactly. I show a hab. She too struggled with the psychological impact.

She was described as being highly traumatized after her rescue. And yeah, we don't know like her whereabouts and activities have remained private. But fine.

Fair enough. So I'm just going to end with a really quick side quest into understanding who joins a cult and why they join a cult. OK.

This is not. Is it you? It's not a look in the mirror. But yes, it's me.

So I just think that this I basically the reason I want to put this in was because I went to a I went to a talk. OK. You just go with my sister.

And now you sell software to the people. No, I went to I went to a talk with my sister years and years ago. And it was on cults and it was looking into it was it was essentially around the psychology of terrorism and cults.

Right. OK. And it was fascinating.

And I will always remember it because one of the things that this lecturer was saying was that if you look at things like the British Army or the Navy, you look at any of their like TV ads, their radio ads, any of their recruitment driving stuff, all of it is around creating a sense that you don't belong where you are, but you belong with us. And that is a major tactic that cults use. Oh, wow.

Yeah, OK. It's it's yeah, you know, born in Carlisle. Yeah, the Royal Navy.

Yeah, it's it's all they use very, very similar tactics to what cults use. And I got fascinated by this and started researching it. So I wanted to just give a little bit of an understanding around it because it was interesting to kind of I think a lot of people assume that those people who end up in cults are potentially like vulnerable people.

Or they're people who maybe aren't maybe have a low IQ and it could not be further from the truth. No, most people who end up in a cult often share certain psychological and situational traits. And cult leaders like Balakrishnan take advantage of numerous vulnerabilities with some of the most common factors thought to increase susceptibility to cult involvement.

And these are the most common things. So number one is a need for belonging and identity, which leads back to my point around the army. People with a deep seated need for community belonging or purpose are often more vulnerable to cult recruitment.

Many cults offer members a powerful sense of identity and family like bonds creating a space where individuals feel seen, valued and connected to a larger mission. Individuals who feel marginalized, socially isolated or directionless may find this especially appealing. And I've then put in brackets here.

This is also what the army and navy do in all of their advertising, just saying. Number two is a psychological vulnerability or emotional crisis. So individuals who are experiencing significant life transitions or emotional crisis, such as the loss of a loved one, a divorce, moving to another country to go to university.

Exactly. Illness, job losses. They're more, they're often more open to new ideas and support networks.

So cults explode, exploit this openness and present themselves as a sanctuary or a solution for coping with the distress. Also, the Church of Scientology does the same thing, moving quickly on. Number three, high levels of idealism or a desire for social change.

And this is where I find it quite interesting because to my mind, whenever I think and, you know, you can come for me. But whenever I think of extreme groups, personally, I always go, oh, they're right wing because because I think it's not. No, it's like and it's it's bizarre that like actually this desire for wanting something to change.

And even if on paper or on the surface, it seems like it's a beneficial change and it will make the world a better place. Actually, the militants around that can extremism is extreme. Exactly.

But yeah, whichever end of whatever spectrum you're being extreme about. Exactly. You're still being extreme.

Exactly. Well, I know that you lose all the points, but Hitler was the national socialists. Anyway, idealistic individuals with strong beliefs in social, political or spiritual transformation are often drawn to cults that promote radical or utopian ideas.

These people may already feel disillusioned with mainstream societal values, leading them to seek alternative lifestyles or revolutionary causes. Cults often capitalize on these ideas, ideals, presenting themselves as movements with a higher purpose. And then there's other factors which include things like low self-esteem and a tendency toward dependency, susceptibility to influence and authority, limited critical thinking skills or knowledge, desire for transcendence or spirit, spiritual fulfillment.

And obviously, this all goes to say that not everyone with these traits will end up in a cult. But susceptibility, not inevitability. Exactly.

But you know, these characteristics can increase the likelihood of recruitment, but also of once you're in it, staying in it and being really kind of entrenched in their teachings. Searching. Searching for something that's more than you in whatever aspect that might be.

Exactly. And so, my friends, there we go. That is the story of Bala Krishnan, comrade Bala, and the Lambeth slavery case.

That was really, really well done, mate. Thanks, love. That was insane.

Do you know what? I enjoyed researching that one purely because there was so much history involved in it. And we all know I'm a little geek when it comes to history. But yeah, it was it was quite fascinating because a lot of the sources and obviously I'll put them all on the show notes as usual, but a lot of the sources were it was quite hard to find out what actually happened to the women.

Right. There was loads on his politics, absolute bucket loads and loads of comparisons between him and other people and like, you know, but actually trying to get to the nub of what the victims of his cult was, was harder. There was lots from Katie Davis, which was, you know, and again, I would say if you can still, I think it is called the cult next door.

I'm sure it will be available somewhere in the world. Go and have a watch of it because it's really interesting. But yeah, there was there was a lot of stuff around.

Yeah. What kind of caused him to be like it? And it was very much a focus on the cult leader rather than on what he'd done his actions. Like, yeah, then his crime.

Yeah, exactly. So that was quite interesting. And it was also just fascinating to think that that his wife just got off, got through.

And you think she's a victim as well. He'd already started when they met, right? No. Oh, I thought you said that.

No. So she I think it was they she met him in London, but she was with him when he was kicked out of the communist party. Sorry, got my timings.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, that's a bit different. I think I think the thing for me then would you sit there and think like you and your partner have the exact same views.

Yeah. And they are extreme to some, but to you, they're just what you believe in. And you think you found a group in which you can share and threat a theoretical size about these shared beliefs and all that.

And you get kicked out of because I'm assuming she got kicked out too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you get kicked out of that group where you thought you'd found your tribe and you're still talking to a partner about these shared beliefs.

You still got these shared beliefs. Is it a bit of like frogging boiling water versus frogging in a simmering pot thing where like, would you genuinely, would you know, hang on a minute, he's starting a cult here. Yeah, true.

She may have been too close to it to see it. And I, and I could see just like for my simple brain. Yeah.

So like, I'll do me and Richard this week because you tried to kill Will last week. Whatever. Richard can't do an editor's note.

He has no right of reply at any stage in his life. Blocked. Anyway, so say just, I'm trying to think of an example.

Say we both wanted to go on a weight loss journey. Right. And we're both really passionate about it.

We've both got a PT. Yeah. And we're both going to the gym and we're both eating really healthily.

Yeah. And I get in the gym, I get approached and I'm sold Juice Plus. Right.

Yeah. I am going to say the Juice Plus is a cult. Whatever.

Come for me. Don't come forward. There's loads of people coming for me this episode.

Whatever. But if I get sold Juice Plus and I am taking it and I see a weight loss because if you're not eating, of course you will. Yeah.

Anyway, Hannah, not the point. Stay on message. Come on, babe.

I might need a shot of vitamins and minerals and electrolytes in one handy formula. Stay on message. So I'm taking it and I'm like, this is brilliant.

Yeah. Like I'm getting so many results from this. We're in the same journey.

You believe in the same, like you're aiming for the same goal I'm aiming for here. Like you don't even have to buy it from me because you're my partner. Rich, here's some Juice Plus for you.

Yeah. We love Juice Plus. I'm then in that.

Well, hang on a minute. I love this. I'm really loving the gym.

I'm seeing results. Yeah. I want to share that.

I want to sell that on. I'm going to sell that to Rach. I'm going to sell that to my mum.

I'm going to sell that to everyone that I know. Richard doesn't do that. Richard's just taking it because I keep giving it to him because he likes it and it's getting the result that he wants from it.

At what point does he turn around and go, you're like, if he is such inclined that he's just on that journey with me, how culpable is he for the fact that I'm part of a pyramid scheme now? Yeah, I get that. And I'm dragging other people in underneath it and I'm building the pyramid. I can completely see that viewpoint.

I can completely see when you are too close for something to be able to see the wood for the trees. I do not discount that that very, very well could have been the case with Chandra Patney. The bit where you lose me is when he starts beating and raping the followers and he does it publicly.

That's when I start to think, yeah. Is there maybe some complicency, complicency? That's a word. I'm making up loads of words at the minute.

Complicency this week. Last week it was sombre... Sombreing. Sombreing, that's it.

There we go. Which just makes me think of tambourines, but I don't know why. Oh, it's because I submarine.

But anyway, this is not the game. But yeah, I think it's... I just don't see how you can be in that world which is entirely isolated, have nothing but those things going on around you. Being the one who is enforcing the strict regimes and the schedules and the chores and everything else that goes with it.

And say that you weren't aware of any of the malicious intent that was behind it. Because also, to go back to your pyramid scheme concept, technically you're not hurting anybody. No, but okay, so I know full well, because we've been taking Juice Plus for however many months, I know full well that actually we're in dire health condition.

Our lives are deteriorating or whatever. Our kidneys are failing. And I know that.

And I'm still actively pushing it. And I'm still giving it to him. And he's going, okay, all right then.

And he's still taking it. He's still a case study for me. And I'm like, Richard's still taking it.

But I've become so dominant and so controlling of his every meal, because I'm giving him this life force that he's sustained sustenance, whatever he's being sustained by. I've become so powerful in his world that I could imagine her not condoning but blind-eyeing. Again, I don't know why I'm trying to defend.

I mean, usually it's me that's trying to find reasoning behind why these people might not be as mean as I think they are. But I suppose maybe I'm coming from it as a in a thing of like, if he's, if he's, by all accounts, sounds like a master manipulator and an incredibly coercive, controlling person and not, you know, an incredibly high intelligence level to be that manipulative. I was trying to find another word and I can't find it.

But why are we so adamant that she wasn't completely coerced, completely controlled, completely dominated, completely manipulated into a point where, what's she got to come out? Yeah. Where is she going to pop out of this cycle? Or how is she going to burn it all to the ground? She's got nothing else either. No, agreed.

And I think this is obviously like, this is the reason why there is this, there are two schools of thoughts on her. And there are people like me who are like, no, she fucking neighbors know about it. Like, she could have done something to stop it.

She decided not to. And then there are people who fall on the side of, no, she also believed in Jackie. She also believed that he could, you know, control the weather and the seas and, you know, all the rest of it.

And if she was to it, like it would only ever. Yeah, I just I just think that personally, for me, I see it as she was there with him at the beginning. They had the ideologies.

They were, you know, they found this this kindred connection between them. But I just don't think I don't know. I just I just can't see her as a. He never abused her.

She was always the one who was dishing out the enforcement. All right. She was the one who is.

Do you know what I mean? I just I just know I do get your point. And I think I actually agree with you. I don't know.

I'm just kind of testing. Yeah. But no one knows.

I've no idea where she is now. I don't know what she's doing. Really interesting to see, like, yeah, what her perspective on it.

Yeah. But yeah, so I. But it's just so sad as well when you think about like, Sean, God, it's heartbreaking. And I went and the fact that like they both died and their family weren't given the opportunity to say goodbye.

It's horrific. It's just yeah. And poor Katie, as I say, she is awesome.

And she sounds like a fucking powerhouse. She is. And yeah, it's she's very outspoken about it.

So yeah, I do encourage people to go and check her out and listen to her. Does she ever talk about her political beliefs? Not that I have seen. It'd be interesting.

Yeah, it would be quite interesting. I would imagine that there's probably some hangover. Yeah.

Yeah. But, you know, I haven't seen anything about that, but I didn't look for it explicitly either. But yeah, so that's well done.

Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you.

I do have a slightly related thing. I'll probably get this wrong somehow. OK.

But just because we're talking about human trafficking and modern day slavery, I can't remember what it was on. I think it might have been like a 24 hour in police custody thing. Yeah.

Or like one of those kind of documentary programs. Yeah. And they were talking about drug trafficking and county lines and dealers and kind of kingpins and blah, blah, blah.

And they were saying that actually these days, the police try and go for human or modern day slavery charges, because if you go to prison on a drugs, on a drug dealing charge, you're almost lauded for it. But if you you're kept in a if you go for a modern day slavery or a human trafficking charge or a child trafficking charge, you're in a different part of the prison completely anyway. And then also it's like a it's a different reputation around you.

I saw the same episode. Yeah. And it was it was because it was really interesting.

It is really interesting. And I think it was also in that particular case, it was linked to the fact that they had teenagers. Yeah, that's what I mean.

So they all had drug runners. I should have said that. But that's typical county lines.

Yeah, of course. You get disenfranchised youth and the younger, the better. Yeah, exactly.

And then they can. Yeah. But if they go in as modern day slavery for it, you don't fuck with kids.

Exactly. So, yeah, it is quite interesting. But I think it's quite clever.

I think it's really clever. I think it's probably the most innovation we've seen from the police force in a long time. Oh, dear.

Yeah, it's it's fascinating because I think as well that the other thing that I found mad about this case was the fact that, you know, the concept of modern day slavery feels so alien. But it's not. It's it's happening all the time, everywhere.

And like, you know, just a quote unquote civilized countries is rife with it. Yeah. So to kind of like and for this to have gone on like from the 70s until 2013, I have another question that's just come to me.

But this this might be the world's longest episode. I don't know. It started chaotic and now suddenly got into it.

But it's interesting or curious maybe that it spans over 30 years. Yeah, it was a woman and him. There's documented acts of rape and there was only one child.

Yeah. That doesn't seem right to me. Anyone ever excavated that house? I don't know.

Should we get some ground penetrating radar? See what's going on. I mean, this is taking the pod to the next level. You join us here.

We did. We did say when we first started this, we're like, maybe we can visit the places where they don't don't do that. Don't do that.

Although I would like a lapel mic. I would like a lapel mic. All the influences have got them now and you see them on Instagram and I'm like, I want a lapel mic.

I've got a birthday coming up. Husband just saying lapel mics for everyone. He'd have to have one.

Did he come out here to do it? No, he did it in his office because he's got a mic and everything up there. Anyway, I think this might be one of the longest episodes in history. So I suppose all that's left to say is all the nice stuff.

We've got the Instagram going strong. So come and join us over there. We've got the website that's been updated.

There's a whole season two section now. There's a Facebook group. There is a Facebook group and we will be launching the Patreon at some point when I can pull my finger out and sort some shit out with it.

Again, that was meant to be one of my jobs when I was ill. She's been ill guys. Very ill.

Very ill. But yeah, so that will be coming soon. And can I just say thank you so much to all the lovely people who've been leaving us little messages about like, when's the Patreon coming? And oh, let me know because I'd really like to join in and stuff.

It's very, very mad. You're all mentors. You're all bonkers.

And also to say we hit 30,000 downloads now. So that's insane. And I can't quite get my tiny little brain around it.

That's so many. So many people. I can't think about it.

I'll spin out. It's mad. But no, we love you and all of that.

And you can also drop us an email over to Hannah. She's in charge of those. This is Sinister South Podcast at gmail.com. Oh, Sinister South Pod.

It's Sinister South Podcast. I'm glad you know. Sinister South Podcast at gmail.com. And then the website is Sinister South Pod.

Rachel, oh my God, what's happened? We've been discontinued from Shopify. We don't have a Shopify account, so it's fine, mate. Oh my God.

The spam must be spamming. I will fall for it. Do send me that link.

I'll download it. Whatever. I don't care.

Don't send her links. God. Rachel, they said I was pretty.

I've got enough to deal with on a daily basis. But no, so I suppose all that's left to say is thank you very much, Trevors. Thanks, babes.

Happy New Year. Happy New Year. I'm off to have a juice blast.

Love it. So yeah, Trevors, we love you and bye-bye. Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.