The Baffling Story of Noel & Marie Brown

Trevors Episode 4 of Season 2 is here!  In this episode, Rach tells us the story of the baffling case of Noel and Marie Brown, a father and daughter found murdered in Deptford, South London, under circumstances that seem more suited to a crime thriller than real life.

Was Noel targeted because of his past? Was it a grudge, a gambling win gone wrong, or something else entirely? And how did Marie, a devoted mum just trying to check on her dad, end up caught in this grim scenario? With no signs of forced entry and a trail of theories that twist and turn like Deptford’s backstreets, we explore the investigation, the evidence, and the questions that still leave everyone scratching their heads.

Sources used in this episode include:
https://news.sky.com/story/victim-in-deptford-double-murder-had-limbs-removed-11178660

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-42264659

https://southwarknews.co.uk/news/crime/marie-brown-noel-brown-case-deptford/

https://southwarknews.co.uk/news/crime/peckham-marie-brown-noel-brown-murder/

https://southwarknews.co.uk/area/deptford/marie-brown-noel-brown-theory-deptford-peckham/

https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/news/missing-limbs-of-murdered-father-in-double-slaying-still-not-recovered/

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/11/police-identify-suspect-in-deptford-double-murder-inquiry

https://news.sky.com/story/dismembered-sex-offender-noel-brown-may-have-been-dead-for-days-11166426

https://www.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/news/local-news/first-pictures-dad-daughter-found-885011

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/nursery-worker-found-murdered-may-disturbed-killers-dismembered-fathers-body-124350449.html

https://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/15714570.noel-brown-may-have-died-days-before-he-was-found-strangled-in-flat/

Thanks for tuning in! If you loved diving into the dark corners of South London with us, don't forget to hit that subscribe button to never miss an episode of "Sinister South."

Also, follow us on Instagram @SinisterSouthPodcast for sneak peeks, behind-the-scenes content, and more cheeky banter, or www.sinistersouthpod.co.uk. Remember, every crime tells a story... and South is the best side of the river...

Produced and hosted by Hannah Williams & Rachel Baines
Mixed & edited by Purple Waves Sound (A.K.A Will)

Transcript

Noel & Marie Brown

Hello, I'm Rachel, I'm Hannah, and this is the Sinister South podcast. A podcast, an audio treat for all listeners who are interested in crime and suspicion and intrigue and South London. I love that. 

Well done you. Thanks, babes. Very good.

Very, very good. Yeah. Hi.

Hello. How are you? I'm good, babe. I'm good.

I'm feeling very like, I've kind of, I've arrived. Yeah. We've sat down, we've had a bit of a chat.

I'm like, I'm ready to record. I've got a little cardigan over my knees, like a little old lady. I've got my small dog I'll talk about in a sec.

And I was just like, I'm, I'm cozy. I am in. I'm ready to hear a story.

I don't even like, who cares how we are. Let's just fucking get into it. Let's just get into it.

Yeah. Yeah, really good. Just been, yeah, doing a lot of walking with, with the little dolly do who I have next to me.

So if you hear any, um, any, the sounds of someone cleaning themselves with their own tongue, um, Dolly does look at me disapprovingly as well. Um, but she's very dexterous. She's a tiny little doggy.

She's my mother-in-law's dog and I've stolen her for a little while and she's just delightful, but she can be, she'll either pass out and just be fast asleep and it'll be fine. Or she'll be really annoying and fidgety. So you might hear her in the background.

Right. She's a good girl. She's a good girl.

It's her first time in the tiny shed. It is. Welcome Dolly Doo.

And, uh, yeah, so me and her have just been going a lot of steps in. Nice. What else has been going on? I had a birthday.

You had a birthday. You did have a birthday, my darling girl. And I'm going to take this moment in time because I have just received it.

Hannah got me a present and it's like, for those of you who know us, know why I'm like shocked. I don't buy presents. I don't know what's wrong with me.

It just, it's something like, I have a complete mental block on present giving. I will do, like, I'll see things over a year maybe and be like, oh, that person would like that. And I'll just get it or whatever or not.

But like when it's like, oh, Rachel's birthday's coming up, nothing in my brain or body goes, better buy her a present. The thing is though, right, you are the sort of person who is, you're incredibly thoughtful in so many other ways, like, gifts are not the thing that you do, but it's not like you then don't have, like you have an alternative. Yeah, like, I'm not just a complete prick.

You know what, like, fuck you. Like you do, you are, you're wonderful in many other ways. But I am very chuffed and I would take a photo and put it up on the Instagram.

But I have a lovely necklace that says South London and I'm so happy with it. I saw it and I was, I was like, because I'd made a concert to death. I was like, I'm going to buy Rachel a birthday present this year.

I'm like feeling very righteous with myself. And I was like, I literally sat down to think, what should I get her? And I opened my phone, it was a targeted ad and I saw it straight away. And I was like, there we go, done.

That was easy. And it's a brand that I know as well, like, won't turn your neck green. Oh, good.

I don't, it's not an unfamiliar brand. It's where I got my, the flick thing. That is an audio podcast.

I have a necklace that's got a spinner on it that says hell yes or fuck no. It's amazing. And I use it to make basically any big life decision because I can't flip coins.

No, I can't either. I'm useless. It's like you try and, yeah, like, you know, when people do it and they can like.

And catch it. But that's in the next door's garden. There's many sort of things like that that I can't do though.

I can't, I can't whistle. You can't whistle? I can't whistle. Didn't know that.

That's it. That's all you're getting from me. I mean, it wasn't terrible, but.

No, but like, you know how some people can like, there we go. Oh no, that was terrible. Oh God.

Oh God. I'm going to be disowned by the whistling community. But yeah, I can't whistle.

I can't. There we go. There we go.

That was better. That was much better. No, I cannot do that.

My entire family, as in like my immediate family, my children and my husband, they can all roll their tongues. I know that's genetic, but I can't roll my tongue. I can't make it curl up at all.

I can. Yeah. Again, just listen to everything she's saying.

I'm attempting to see if I can do it. I can't click properly. That's basically, I'm just a failure of a human.

What's wrong with you? Many things. Many things. I had last week.

You've been a shit jazz musician. Oh, I've been an awful jazz musician. Because that's why I think whistling and clicking, that's what jazz is to me.

That's what jazz is, yeah. It's a bit like that really stupid video that went around years ago. It's like me after eating a pasty and it's the guy who's doing all the.

Oh, yeah. Patting on himself and dusting himself. Yeah, 100%.

Don't give me anything flaky pastry. That's me. But yeah, no, Hannah will know this.

Last week, I had a bit of an, well, had an absolutely manic week with work. Can't really explain why or how. It was just one of those where like things just crept up on me and I suddenly went like, oh, shit.

And then on cue, my brain. Oh, my God. Can I go there? You can.

Oh, yeah. I'm leading you in. You have to let me tell this.

I'm leading you in. So, yeah. And then obviously, because it was a period of quite intense deadlines and things that needed to be done, my procrastination came in and made my brain fall out of my ears.

So, yeah. So, me and Rach met up with a friend of ours and we went to a co-working space or like it's a co-working space, but it's like a private members club in London. We're very bougie.

It's fabulous. There were three of us sat on a table. We were kind of near the loos.

That's important for the story. But there were also lots of other people there kind of throughout the day that we vaguely knew through the agency industry or like just life or whatever. And one person in particular, who's a good friend of a friend of ours, the third person that was with us, and they've worked together for years and kind of know each other very well.

So, by osmosis and proximity, we've got to know this man quite well as well, or like fairly well, I'd say. And he's about my height. So, he's not short, but he's not tall.

He's not a large man. No, he's like maybe like 5'8", maybe a bit taller than me. So, like, yeah, 5'8", I'd say.

So, he was on a call when we first arrived. So, we'd said hello to some other people. Then three of us went, sat down, got our table, got out our laptops and we were talking about work and like just catching up, ordering coffee, all that shenanigans, all that stuff.

And he came walking over and he was like, oh, ladies, I will come and say hello to you properly. It's really lovely to see you. I'm just going to use, I'm just going to go to the toilet first.

And Rachel, Rachel's so intelligent, right? Like, she's such a clever woman. But when her brain does melt, it's visceral. You can, you can watch it happen.

It's very, it's very confronting. Like, her face literally falls off. Like, you can see it happening.

And she looked this man dead in the eye and went, off you go then, you small man. What? Me and the other person. I like, immediately, do you know when you think, what did she say? I like, my initial reaction was, I must not have understood the joke or it must be like an inside joke or something.

Then I saw Rachel's face. And then, then I heard what came out of her neck. She went, I meant little, I meant little, I meant little man.

I meant little, go to the loo, little man. And I, I can't breathe. I worked out what she meant was, visit the little boys room.

It hadn't happened. He's looking dead in the eye. Go on then, small man.

It might be fair to him. He handled it really well. He just looked at you and went, I don't know who you've been talking to.

And then went into the toilets. But like, fantastic. But I still like, honestly, I mean, me and the other person were, we couldn't stop talking about how the secondhand embarrassment we had.

I like how, like the cringe. Like I wanted to, I wanted the floor to eat me up. So God knows what you felt.

And it was so like, it was just so funny. And especially because this man has, in the past, had a level of authority over us as well. And like, to be fair to him, he did come out of the toilet and he was like, I was in there and all I could hear was you three laughing about it.

But then, so very, like the day went on and I kind of, I kept thinking about it, but like not wanting to bring it up too much. But then Rach left to go to another work thing. And it was just me and the other person.

And then there was a few of us there that we'd all agreed, because we hadn't actually had to, time to catch up properly. Five, we'd down tours, we'd meet, we'd go into the bar area of the club, of the members club and have a drink, say hello. And it was lovely.

Got to see some people like, um, yeah, yeah, it was there. And she, it's always great to see her. And actually we were talking about the podcast with her.

And like, there were some ex-clients of the business we used to work for moved to them. And, um, three of the group were going on to another event altogether. And I, I, it wasn't even me that brought it up.

The other, the other woman that was with us, our other friend told the group of what had happened in front of him, him still being there. He was one of the three going to this event. And then the next day we got a WhatsApp from her saying that it's spread around the event.

And she said to me, she was like, it's spread so much that now it's basically his nickname is small man. Well, do you know what? I'm glad to have been of service. I don't know whether to think it's the most hilarious thing in the world or feel really sorry for him.

Go on then, small man. It was a complete and utter brain fart. Like my brain just stopped working.

I knew I was trying to say it had all happened. Like, yeah, it was, it was just mad. And then it was like, yeah, the next day I just sent the girls a, um, a picture on WhatsApp that just says person.

What's the dumbest thing you've ever done? Me awfully bold of you to assume I've peaked. So if anyone wants to be insulted on this, just, you know, drop her an email. Yeah, it was, um, it wasn't my finest hour.

There's been like, I was talking to my cousin who is a, is a listener and, uh, it's going to sound rude that I didn't say hello then. But I took a big, I know, I know. I saw you did.

Hi. I timed that incorrectly. I'm also now trying to filibuster because I feel like I'm going to sneeze.

Oh, it's gone. Yeah, no. So it was my birthday on Tuesday and I went to a spa with my cousin.

It was very lovely. And we were chatting about all of the kind of like times that we've said something really stupid and I'm going to put it out there into the world because it lives rent free in my head, but it's akin to small man. So my cousin is again, an incredibly intelligent woman.

Every now and then her brain just leaves her body and she can come out with some of the amazingly brilliant things that anyone has ever said. We were watching, we weren't watching anything. We were listening to the radio years ago and it was one of those dialing conversation, like competition things.

And the question was name the latest episode, name the latest edition of Windows. Here's a clue. It starts with a V and without a single moment of hesitation, my cousin with the utmost supreme air of confidence turns around and goes, I know, Vlux.

And honestly, I probably think about that about eight times a week. Oh dear. So yes, apparently my family are well versed in brain farts.

Right, and this again, I was talking to Rich about it. I can't remember anything I've done. Oh, I'm sure there will be some.

I'll have to have a think about it. I was going to say you would know. Your memory is so much better than mine, especially about my life.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you would know. There will be some.

I just have to think about it. I'll come back to you next week. Yeah, I must have done something along the same lines.

Yeah. My sister, when she was shaking a present under the Christmas tree one year and I was like, when she was a kid, I was like, it's a book. And she goes, yeah, I know.

I'm trying to work out which one. Of course you are. So yeah, the family history of brain farts.

I love it. But there we go. Oh, dear.

Right. I'm painting my nails. I'm changing my nail varnish for anyone that's interested at the same time as this, because I'm a multitasker.

What can I say? You are. It makes you feel cozy. I don't know why.

But anyway, there we go. You're going to tell me a story, right? I am. I'm going to tell you a story.

And it's a slight. Well, it's an interesting one. It's one of those ones where, like, I knew the names.

I kind of remember reading a little bit about it at the time. But I had never really done a deep dive. It was always just sort of OK.

And then I did a deep dive and I did it at the weekend. And this has this is the reason why this was actually an episode that's meant to be a few weeks away now. But I've bumped it because it was so fucking fascinating.

So, yes, I'm going to get yourself comfy. And today I'm going to tell you the story of Noel and Marie Brown. I don't recognize the names at all.

Do you not? I'm really excited. Oh, OK. OK, OK.

Go, sorry, I won't interrupt again. No, that's absolutely fine. Don't be silly.

Right. On a cold December morning in 2017, the bustling neighbourhood of Deptford, South London awoke to news that would shock its tight-knit community. It began with a simple welfare check.

Marie Brown, a devoted mother of two and a beloved nursery worker, hadn't been heard from after visiting her father, Noel, at his flat on New Butt Lane in Deptford. Concerned friends and family called the police, uneasy at the uncharacteristic silence from both Marie and her father. When officers arrived at Noel's ground-floor council flat on the 4th of December, they had no way of knowing the horror that awaited them.

Inside, they discovered a scene of unimaginable violence. Noel Brown, 69, lay lifeless, having been strangled and gruesomely dismembered. Oh, my God.

Nearby, they found Marie's body. She, too, had been strangled, seemingly caught up in the killer's frenzy as she tried to check in on her father. It was a crime that defied comprehension.

A father and daughter brutally murdered in what appeared to be a targeted attack. With little to go on initially, police were left to piece together the dark and sinister events that had unfolded behind the doors of Noel's unassuming flat and uncover the events prior to the murder, which may have been its catalyst. So, who were Noel and Marie Brown? Noel Brown, a 69-year-old father and grandfather, was a familiar face in Deptford.

Born in Jamaica, Noel came to the UK and settled into life in a vibrant community. Over the years, he became known for his quiet demeanour and humble routines. He was said to be a retired pensioner.

Well, he wasn't said to be. He was a retired pensioner. I've retired from taking my pensioner.

He's a retired pensioner and a regular at the local Paddy Power betting shop. On Deptford High Street. And there he would place small daily bets.

I was talking a couple of pounds here and there. And he would then share his small incremental winnings with other people in the shop. Right, it's one of my, like, it's so cute.

I know gambling's not cute in general, but so Richard's granddad used to like to put a bet on the horses or whatever, but didn't want to get carried away. So he'd only bet in 20ps. I love it.

Isn't it just so sweet? That is so sweet. It's just something like, I know gambling's not wholesome, but there's something so wholesome about, like, responsibly enjoying something. Yeah, exactly.

It's like, I have fun. This is like, I love doing this. Like, I love and he knew everyone at the betting shop by his local, like, and all of that.

And like, I love doing this. I love the community around it. Like, blah, blah, blah.

But I don't want to financially ruin myself. Yeah, exactly. So it is just sort of he's doing it for the fun of it rather than for anything else.

I don't know. Yeah, there is something about that. Yeah.

So, so yeah, Noel was very similar in that regard. And in that regard only. He was described by friends as wise, humble and kind, and was said to have a passion for writing poetry and a deep appreciation for reggae music and football, supporting Tottenham Hotspur.

Neighbours and friends who knew Noel said he was a man who kept to himself, but was always approachable. I've realised I just said and in that way only and then called this man kind. And it's because you'll get to it later on and you'll understand why I've said it.

But I was like, I didn't want to say anything. I was like, hang on a minute. I don't understand.

We'll get to it later. I can't even hint at it yet. Oh, wow.

OK, I'm ready. Carry on. Neighbours and friends who knew Noel said he was a man who kept to himself, but was always approachable.

He relied on the support of some of them who helped him with day to day errands, such as shopping as his health declined. He had survived a stroke in 2015 and underwent treatment for prostate cancer also. Jenny Hilton, who was Noel's neighbour, said she was close friends with Noel and would go with him to Paddy Power every day for him to bet on the horse racing.

She said, I never knew of any issues with him with anyone. He was my best friend and I trusted him with my life. While he lived alone, Noel had very strong ties with his family who lived nearby.

He reconnected with his daughter, Marie, in adulthood, and the two spoke daily. Marie often visited him, taking the bus from Peckham, where she lived, to Deptford to check in on his wellbeing. Marie Brown was a 41-year-old single mother of two.

She worked as a nursery nurse at Ivydale Primary School in Nunhead. Her colleagues and the parents of children she cared for remembered her as a vital part of the school community and someone who approached her work with kindness, compassion and professionalism. Her headteacher, Helen Ingham, described her as a valued member of our team and spoke of the void her loss left within the school and among the families that she worked with.

Marie had two children, aged 18 and 9. Her youngest daughter was said to be autistic, and Marie was a fierce advocate for her, often sharing messages of support for children with autism on her social media accounts. Her friends described her as a determined and practical person who was focused on creating a better future for her family. And to kind of prove this, she was, at the age of 41, learning to drive so that she could improve her daughter's lives by being able to give them as a family greater independence.

Friends and family described Marie as a warm and generous person who was always willing to help others. So what happened to Noel and Marie? Yeah, I'm nervous now. In the early hours of the 4th of December, police were called to Noel's address on New Butt Lane.

There had been a break in Noel's established routine, with locals noticing that he had not been making his daily visits to the local paddy power. Described as a man of habit, he would place modest bets on horses and engage in friendly chats with staff and other regulars. His last confirmed sighting was on Thursday 30th November at around 8pm when a neighbour saw him returning to his flat.

His absence at the shop on Friday 1st December raised some concerns, and over the following days his phone remained unanswered, which sparked anxiety in his daughter Marie. His neighbour and friend Jenny said that she went round to Noel's flat at around 10.30am for their daily trip to the betting shop on Friday, but there was no answer at the door. She said she only got concerned when Marie called and asked for her to check on Noel, which she did, and again there was no answer.

On Saturday 2nd December, Marie had decided that she was just going to go to the flat she couldn't get hold of her dad and to make sure that he was okay, and she left her youngest child with a neighbour promising to return shortly. Her elder daughter, Venetia, stated that on the day Marie went missing, my mum said she would call me with what she found. When I arrived at university at 1.30pm she still hadn't called.

I tried to call throughout the day, but it didn't go to voicemail, it just rang and rang. I finished at uni at 9pm and went home, and my mum wasn't there. This was very out of character.

I called Jenny again to double check my grandad's flat. Jenny Hilton knocked on the door of Noel's flat once again and peered through the letterbox and rang both his and Marie's phones, before assuming that maybe Noel had had some sort of medical situation and that Marie had taken her father to hospital. Venetia then stated, I called the police to file a missing persons report and they said they would take me to my grandad's.

They told me when we got there that they had found two bodies, one male, one male and one I was so worried it was my mum and grandad. There was no reason why anyone would want to harm my mum or grandad. My mind is still blown by this situation.

I do not know how to even begin dealing with this. Body camera footage that police had when they were first meeting with Jenny Hilton showed her explaining to the officers, I phone, I phone, I phone, I phone, I rang until my credit was finished, no answer. Then she asked them, did you check next door? Officers rushed to the neighbouring block where Noel's flat was, but found that they were initially unable to get into the flat, forcing them to climb up to the first floor balcony to get a view inside.

What they saw gave them little choice but to smash the front door down. Slumped in the living room, her eyes still slightly open, was the lifeless body of Marie. She was still wearing her coat, which indicated she hadn't been there long.

Police believed that when she entered the flat using her own key, she interrupted attackers who had already killed her father and were dismembering him in the bathroom of his home. In what appeared to be an attempt to conceal the crime and the chaos that was kind of following it, Marie was overpowered and yet strangled and abrasions were discovered on her neck, which may have been self-inflicted as a way to kind of relieve the compression on her throat. Oh, I see.

Right, like, like scratching at her neck to try and defend herself, basically. Oh, God, this is terrible. It's not fun.

The investigation revealed that Noel had also been strangled and his body had been moved to the bath. Police found him in the bathroom where he had been partially dismembered using a saw. Fuck.

His arms below the elbows had been removed, as had his right leg. Despite the gruesome nature of the crime, there wasn't a huge amount of blood present. But Detective Chief Inspector Simon Harding, who we'll hear from quite a lot in this episode, he led the investigation and he said that there were numerous bottles of bleach nearby, indicating a clear up operation and that Mr Brown's body was later found to have had bleach burns on it at the, when he was at the coroner's.

Yeah. The body parts were missing from the scene and have never been recovered. Oh, my God.

Yeah. I was going to interrupt, but I'll let you tell me because otherwise. No, it's all right.

What were you going to say? Why? Why only one leg? I think it was because. They got disturbed. Yeah, that's what they think happened.

So it was like Marie's come in as he was in the process of. But then if you're going to go to the effort of taking two arms and a leg with you, why wouldn't you? It's all. Yeah.

And you've killed the other person. Oh, I don't know. It's all very.

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting.

So there were extensive searches for the body parts as well. Police believe that they were removed from the property over several visits. What? Yeah.

DCI Harding stated in my 27 years of policing, I have not seen anything quite like this. He added that there was no trace of the missing body parts after police divers searched nearby Deptford Creek. Specialist dogs had scoured the estate and they'd used drones and helicopters to fly over rooftops to see if they could find.

Nothing. Nothing. No idea where they are.

Oh, my God. Detective Inspector Helen Rance said it was believed that Noel was killed on December the 1st due to Noel's bed being made and data taken from his computer, which showed it had been switched off for the final time at quarter past 10 a.m. on Friday morning. Right.

She said that Marie was believed to have died between December the 2nd and December the 4th, and it would appear that she was strangled almost instantly after she arrived at the flat and she was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. DCI Harding also believed that the ligatures that Noel and Marie were strangled with were actually sock bandages, and he said that Noel wore these on a daily basis as he had problems with his legs and they were discovered in several places in the flat. Oh.

Police stated that there were no signs of forced entry into the property, suggesting that Noel may have known his killer, and he was said to have had no defensive wounds, which indicated that he was a victim. He was victim to a surprise attack. Yeah.

Neighbours reported hearing screams in the early hours of the morning on December the 2nd, but such disturbances were not uncommon in the area, leading them to dismiss the noises at the time. One resident recalled to police, I heard some screaming at two in the morning. It's a regular thing around here to get up and shut your windows.

There were a lot of crackheads. That was a verbatim quote. Fair.

In the newspaper. There we go. And then neighbour Colette Lavelle mentioned hearing petrified screaming at around 2am, but again thought little of it, so did not bother to report it.

Another neighbour mentioned observing a red car speeding away from the vicinity around the same time, but this car was never traced. Oh wow. Despite this, many in the local community described the area as being, yes, quite well known for drug use and petty crime, but there was a real level of shock over the brutality.

I was going to say, yeah. DCI Simon Harding again stated that they were launching an extensive investigation into the crime. They were conducting door-to-door inquiries, collecting CCTV footage and searching the areas for clues.

They examined drains and bins for any discarded evidence, and he emphasised the importance of public assistance in the case, stating, I urgently need the public's help to establish the last movements of both Noel Brown and Marie Brown in the week before their deaths. He appealed for anyone who had interacted with Mr Brown or observed visitors to the flat to come forward. Forensic teams conducted a thorough sweep of the flat and collected numerous pieces of evidence, including Marie's phone wrapped in a towel and stuffed down the back of the sofa, and two tube-y grips which were believed to have been used as ligatures.

So those are the shock advantages. Police also found DNA in a blood drop found on a pillow in the home, which did not match either Noel or his daughter Marie. Further analysis of these items revealed profiles matching an individual linked to an unsolved 2011 burglary in Hounslow, North London, referred to as Unknown 7. But that burglary has never been solved, and so there was no name that could be matched So that DNA was also at that crime? Yes.

So they knew the DNA was in the database. So they knew it was that? They knew it was the same person. Yeah, but they just don't know who that person is.

Exactly. Detectives undertook extensive reviews of CCTV footage from the surrounding area, which covered like almost three miles, and that is mad. That's not usual procedure.

There was one council-owned camera on the estate that was pointed directly over the entrance to Noel's flat, but this was the only camera in the entire estate that was not working at the time. For fuck's sake. So the flats where Noel lived were accessed using key fobs like quite a lot of flats are, and the times and the data connected to which fobs were used on which buildings were all logged, and the police were able to get a hold of this, and a fob believed to have been taken from Noel was recorded as being used when detectives believed he was dead.

Okay. So this was kind of like, that was when they started looking at CCTV, like the timings for when they should be looking was dependent on when the fob was used. Because obviously if she had her own key, she'd have had her own fob.

Exactly. But they're based on the time of death, so they think that he died sort of either late Friday, or like early hours of the Saturday, I think. So but based on the sort of comings and goings of that fob, that's when they're trying to look at the CCTV.

But they weren't finding anything at all. They then got back in contact with the fob company and were talking to them multiple times, and it was revealed that the clocks on the fobs had not been reset to the correct time. Oh, fucking hell.

So police had been out by about an hour in all of their CCTV enquiries. Oh my god. Duh.

So yes, so but to give them credit, like once they had established the correct time, well that was a bit of a waste of time looking at the- Well it wasn't their fault. It's not exactly. But they were, once they'd got the correct time, they were able to identify a man who had been seen visiting Noel's flat on four separate occasions around the time of the murders.

So this man ends up being dubbed Rucksack Man and Bike Man. Let me guess, he came by car with a briefcase. He did, he did.

But yeah, but the reason why there's two names is because they couldn't ascertain if it was the same person. Okay. So yeah, so we've got Rucksack Man and Bike Man.

And this individual, these people, were observed entering and exiting the estate at times that corresponded to the estimated times of the murders. The clips show the suspect, who appears to be aged in his sort of 30s or 40s, dressed in a hooded top, dark-coloured jacket and trousers or jogging bottoms, dark trainers and carrying a rucksack. He was seen in some of the footage walking along Deptford Broadway towards the junction with the A2209, for those of you who are local, and then along Reginald Road at about 5am on December the 2nd.

In one clip, he appears to cross the road to avoid walking straight past a woman in a light-coloured jacket coming in the opposite direction. And we think that's because he may have had some obvious signs of untowardsness, so he didn't want to be seen by her. DCI Harding said, There were lots of people, even though it was 5am.

We cannot rule out that there might have been more than one person and people moving in and out of the building. There was still movement after Marie was killed. The killer is someone willing to take a high level of risk, coming and going over the course of four days until we were called in the early hours of Monday.

What he did was quite calculating. He was still willing to take risks after killing Marie. If he had managed to remove Noel's body, it would have been a missing persons case, which is very hard to investigate.

There was a camera in Newbutt Lane, but it was not working. CCTV cameras do go down quite a lot, but it probably could have told us quite a lot. So, a combination of the FOB data and the CCTV from the surrounding area allowed investigators to build up a picture of Rucksack Man's movements.

So, he's spotted at several points in the surrounding roads, on two occasions riding a bike and moving deeper into South East London towards the flat. DCI Rance said, This allowed us to rewind back to the day we believe Noel was killed. Police spotted one particular individual on a bike entering the estate where Mr Brown lived at 10.29am on Friday, December 1st.

An extensive trawl of the South London CCTV network was then required to find the clearest image of this man. And he was spotted about a mile and a half away with a bag on his back. But again, because they couldn't tell if it was exactly the same man, this is why we've got Bike Man.

Bike Man was seen riding to and from the scene on three occasions. And yeah, they think that the killer had visited the scene four times in total. And DCI Harding said the fourth and final time was late on Saturday evening, possibly to remove body parts and clean up.

So, I'm now going to take us on a bit of a side quest into Rucksack Man and Bike Man. Because I thought I'd try and give a bit of a timeline because it's a bit complicated to understand sort of what they're seeing and where he is and all of that stuff. So, bear with me.

I'm going to try and make it make sense. I can't promise anything. But we'll try.

So, Noel is last seen at the Paddy Power Bookmakers on the 30th of November at 8pm, which is his usual haunt and his usual time to be there. CCTV showed Bike Man arrive at Newbutt Lane around 10.30am on December the 1st and leave at around 11.20am, apparently having killed Noel. But only in less than an hour.

Less than an hour. And it's also, this is why it's kind of weird, because the people saying that there were petrified screams at 2am. Yeah.

And it does kind of make you think that actually that could have just been something completely unrelated. So, he's believed to then have returned on foot. This time, he's spotted in the Rucksack Man footage in the early hours of December the 2nd.

On this occasion, he failed to get into the flat. OK. So, they tried to, like, they looked at the FOB data and could see that, like, he tried to use a FOB to get into that block and it was just not working.

That's, yeah, it's interesting. It later transpires that the killer attempted to enter using a key FOB that he'd found at Noel's flat, assumed it was Noel's key FOB. Right.

It's not Noel's key FOB. It's his neighbour, Jenny's. So, Jenny Wilson's key FOB, it was the spare that she'd left with Noel.

That makes sense. Like, having a copy of each other's. Exactly.

The killer then returned several hours later on the same day, so December the 2nd, at around 11.33am, apparently blagging his way in by claiming to be there to read the gas meters. And this is when he started dismembering Noel's body. And it's on this occasion, around half past 12, that he's interrupted by Marie and he strangles her in order to cover his tracks.

He's then seen leaving at 12.56, so 26 minutes after Marie arrives. Bloody hell. Yeah, by bike.

And then on his final visit at around 6pm the same day, he stays only briefly for reasons that are unclear, and again leaves on a bike. Despite all of this, the suspect's identity remained unknown. The bodies of Noel and Marie were taken to Greenwich Mortuary, where post-mortem examinations confirmed that both of the victims had died from strangulation.

Burst capillaries were found in both bodies, which contributed to this decision. Home office pathologist Dr Simon Poole noted that Noel had also had an underlying heart condition, but that this was not a contributing factor to his death. Detective Superintendent Paul Monk stated, this is a deeply distressing time for Noel and Marie's family as they come to terms with their loss.

Marie's best friend, Lakeisha Ross, who was at the time living in the States, but she posted on Facebook, we've been best friends since the age of six. Speechless, devastated, numb and everything in between. Please bear with me as I take this all in.

She was a huge piece of me, snatched and taken in one second. Please pray for her two daughters. Yeah, so it's brutal.

It's horrendous. It's not fun. No.

But then this leads onto the question of like, why was Noel the target of such an attack and violence? In the aftermath of the attack, investigators explored several potential motives to understand why Noel was targeted. And I'm going to walk you through some of these now. But it's really important to note, and you'll see why this is at the end.

But it's really important to note that like, none of these motives were actually considered to be the conclusive reason. So these are theories. These are all theories.

They're all potentials, but they don't actually, police have never been able to actually find out why this happened. So number one, Noel was targeted due to a large gambling win. As a regular patron of the local betting shop, Noel was well known for his gambling habits, even though these were said to be very small bets.

And speculation arose that he had recently secured a substantial win, possibly around £2,000, which could have made him a target for a robbery. And this was really widely reported at the time. So when Noel and Marie were found, this was what the newspapers were saying.

So surely Paddy Power can tell you that? Exactly. So I think the newspapers jumped before they should have done. And Detective Superintendent Paul Monk, again, he addressed these rumours, stating that there has been speculation that his murder was a result of a large gambling win.

However, at this time, there is no evidence to suggest that this was the case. Despite thorough investigations, including reviewing CCTV footage from the local betting shops and interviewing staff and patrons, there's been no concrete evidence to support this theory. DCI Harding stated there's no evidence of gambling or anything that might have caused people to come at him over debts.

The amount he had won on that day was a matter of pence, not pounds. The area where Noel resided had its share of criminal activity. And according to police data, the crime rate in Deptford in 2017 was higher than the London average, with particular concerns around theft and violent crimes.

But violent crimes being more related to murder wasn't up there. Yeah, but Deptford's always kind of had that reputation, hasn't it? It's always been like, it's a transient place. But Jesus, it was in the Christopher Marlowe one in Shakespeare's time, in Elizabethan time.

And even as, like even growing up, like you knew Deptford as kind of a hotbed for maybe muggings, a hotbed for drug related crime and that kind of thing. But not like... There weren't loads of stories of people being murdered. Like it was always, yeah, it's a bit of a dodgy area.

It's definitely become less dodgy in recent years. I'd say there's been a lot of gentrification around Deptford. But yeah, it hasn't always had the best of reputations.

As you say, in the episode last week with Christopher Marlowe, we're also talking about it with Jane Clawson. Deptford's been in a lot of these cases. And yeah, as I say, the data did show that there was more.

It was higher than the London average in Deptford at this point in time. But the idea that it was around, like there were lots and lots of violent theft. I think that's where they kind of, it got fuelled that there may have been a large win that was the reason for him being attacked.

The second theory was around it being a personal dispute by a known assailant. The idea that Noel Brown may have been killed by someone he knew is not, was one of the most compelling lines of inquiry during the investigation. The absence of forced entry into his flat suggested he likely allowed the perpetrator inside, implying a level of trust or familiarity.

And this theory was supported by Detective Superintendent Monk, who stated, our investigation is fast moving and making progress every day. I want to reassure people that we are doing all we can to find those responsible for the murders of Noel and Marie. At this early stage, we're keeping an open mind regarding the motive.

However, it was clear to the responding officers that there were no signs of forced entry to the property. And one of our key lines of inquiry is to establish if the suspects or suspect were known to Noel and if Marie disturbed them. Yeah, so it's not uncommon in homicide cases.

We've spoken about these a lot. And in London in 2017, approximately 67% of all murder victims were killed by someone they knew, whether through personal, familial or professional relationships. Noel Brown's routines and lifestyle were also key factors in exploring this possibility.

So he was a creature of habit. So yeah, as a regular at the local betting shop, as we said, he was well known. And while he was said to keep himself to himself, the fact that he had very predictable habits.

If you wanted to track him. Yeah. Oh, it was very easy.

Doing the same thing every day. Exactly. So he could have been a very easy target for someone.

He had been described as quiet and polite, but neighbours had also said that he occasionally socialised with a small group of patrons outside the shop. And this raised the question of whether someone in his immediate circle harboured a grudge. Yeah.

Detectives highlighted that there's quite a lot of significance in the final movements that we know of with Noel. And Detective Chief Inspector Simon Harding again said that the Met were interested in hearing from anyone who had spent time with Noel in the days leading up to his death or saw him in the company of people who he didn't normally associate with. So this theory also accounts for the calculated nature of the crime, according to police.

They think that the dismemberment of Noel's body suggested a deliberate attempt to conceal evidence and said that this pointed to someone with the time and presence of mind to attempt. Yeah. It's not frenzied, is it? It's like, right, now I need to do this.

Exactly. It's thought about. And they said that they thought that this kind of illustrated either like a personal vendetta or, yeah, someone who was kind of like well thought out.

Because, well, I suppose I think I've just answered my own question in my head because they got disturbed by Nicole, right? Because I was just thinking, like, if you've killed a man in his own home, what's the point in dismembering him to conceal his identity? Yeah. Well, I mean, I suppose it's kind of not necessarily to conceal his identity. I suppose it's more we want to kill him.

Dispose of the body. But we want to get rid of it without there being a trace and potentially people not realising that he's dead and that he's just not there anymore. I don't know.

And then we get to the bit that I was hinting at earlier. So the third theory is that Noel was killed due to his previous convictions. Noel Brown, while described as quiet and unassuming, had his own history of criminal activity and many, including police, have suggested that revenge for these crimes may have been the reason for his brutal murder.

In 1999, some 18 years prior to his death, Noel was convicted of multiple sexual offences, including one count of rape and six counts of sexual assault involving two young girls said to be the daughters of a family friend. Fuck. So this is why, this is why I say.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it now. Oh, God. No, yeah.

Now, I couldn't find anything about that conviction apart from what I've just told you. Yeah, because they're kids. Exactly.

But there's nothing. I couldn't find any trial transcripts. I couldn't find anything at all apart from that.

Noel received an eight year prison sentence and was released in 2004 and was subsequently placed on the sex offenders register. But it was while he was in prison that he and Marie reconnected because they'd had absolutely no relationship in the past. So she'd gone looking for her dad and found him in prison, yeah.

Oh, God, imagine that. Imagine you go looking for your dad and it turns out he's a fucking rapist. Yeah, it's not pleasant.

So following his release, Brown was deemed to be low risk by probation authorities and DCI Harding stated that there had been a very long period of 16 years where there'd been no offences at all related to either the sexual offences that he had committed previously. But he'd also been known to commit sort of burglaries and other sort of petty theft. Right.

But apparently after his release from prison, there was nothing. That they know of. That they know of, but he's got no record of it after his release.

Noel had been living in the community in Deptford without incident for over a decade. Yeah. And any offence which could have been a reason for the killing would have had to have taken place years previously.

I've no idea what the trigger was all those years later admitted to DCI Harding. We just don't know. Despite this assessment, the MEPT also stated that past crimes could have been the motive for a vigilante attack.

So it might not necessarily have been someone who... Was related to the victims. Yeah, but that kind of found out about it and decided to take it upon themselves. And Detective Superintendent Monk acknowledged that these convictions were an obvious line of inquiry.

Yeah. And due to this, they compiled a list of people who were involved or had been related to any of the previous offences. And as I say, this is not just the sexual offences.

This is also the burglaries and other sort of theft. They found at the time that there had been no contact between Noel Brown and any of the people linked to the crimes. But around 500 names have been compiled by the inquiry.

And these were all people who had connections to either Noel or Marie. Whether that was to do with his criminal activity or not. That's a lot of people.

It's a lot of people. Police additionally included subjects of interest from the area who were known to have had violent histories. And they were looking in particular for two men who had been seen at the door of Noel's flat on Thursday, the 30th of November.

But these were... And they were quickly made key suspects because at the time, like they were trying to figure out... They were there. Exactly, like what had happened. But the lack of visual coverage coupled with the sheer number of people who had visited the street during the four-day period required officers to basically say, no, they didn't have anything to do with it.

And there had been no... There's been no definitive link established between Noel's prior convictions and the event leading to the murders. So they think that it could be. But again, they don't actually know that that is.

I should just make it clear, sorry. I've got a soother in my mouth because I have a really annoying cough and I keep having to interrupt Rachel and it's going to make editing for Will very difficult. So I'm not like doing a funny voice or sounding like... I've got a soother in my mouth and I'm like, yeah, that's no evidence, is there? I'm not putting a voice on.

I'm trying to... I'm doing it for the editorial quality of the podcast, Trevor's. And we thank you for it, we thank you. So what actually happened? Like who actually attacked Noel and Marie? What's going on? I know.

This is one of those ones where it's like I'm back to my kind of unsolved book. Oh, it's so blue bally. I know.

However, I'm going to give you something. I'm going to give you a little bit, right? It was not until March 2018 that the team investigating the killings received DNA results back for more than 100 items that had been submitted for analysis from Noel's flat. And this is where the DNA from Unknown 7 was first found.

With a full DNA profile of the suspected killer, but no one to which it could be linked. Scotland Yard turned to the National Crime Agency. So the National Crime Agency are essentially like the British FBI.

And they specialised in carrying out familial DNA testing in the UK. So in 2018, this was still very in its infancy, but it has helped to solve around 60 cases in the UK. Can I just say, I knew someone that went for a job with the NCA.

Oh, right. And as part of the whole process, which was very long and arduous, they had to be drug tested. Right.

But they had quite short hair. Right. So they had to take care from another area.

Oh. Of the body. Interesting.

Which I didn't know was a thing. No. Oh.

But there you go. Yeah, I figured. I just mouthed at Rachel who it was.

Well, that's what they told me anyway. It could have been complete bollocks. And I'm like, what's happened to your hair? And they're like, well, uh, random drug testing.

Yeah, OK. I really hope that's actually that. And I just fell for it.

Oh, fuck. Oh, and if they're listening, let us know. So, yeah, so this sort of like familial DNA, which we're all quite well recognised with now because of, you know, the Golden State Killer and all of that.

It was fairly pioneering in 2018. And yeah, it has helped to solve up to 60 cases in the UK since 2018. So the next, Lee Rainbow.

What a fucking brilliant name. Fucking fabulous. Lee Rainbow.

Le Rainbow. Le Rainbow. So Lee Rainbow is an expert in the technique at the NCA.

And he said, it is a familial search of a national database to find anyone who may be related to the unknown offender. And this works in two ways. So you either search for a parent-child relationship or a sibling relationship.

And the method is only effective if the relative is on the police national DNA database. We don't like the states. They can access public.

21andMe or whatever it is. So they can access public records in the UK. We only are able to search the national DNA database.

Can you volunteer to be on it? Potentially. I don't know. Take that as a threat, family.

Might volunteer to be on it. That'd be interesting, wouldn't it? Walk the line. So an initial search for a relative of the Deptford killer based purely on the highest genetic match produced what very professionally is known as a screamer or a particularly high ranking result.

So it matched a woman in Birmingham who was found to have had a father with historic links to Deptford. But when they did a full DNA test, they found out that she wasn't related to Unknown 7. But in the background, the NCA had been reprioritizing the results based on loads of different factors such as proximity to South London and age. And they guessed that Bikeman was between about 35 and 45.

And so this helped them to narrow down the results to those who were most likely to be either a parent or a sibling to someone who would have been in that age range. So DCI Harding and DCI Rance were apparently, they were in the pub celebrating a conviction at the end of a different harrowing case. When DCI Rance got a phone call and she said, I received a phone call from one of my officers.

He said, we've found him boss. Officers had contacted an individual who had been contacted before as part of the familial DNA testing, but had refused to provide any samples. And then this individual had called back and kind of said, are you interested in a male relative who has died recently? And they'd managed to get a full DNA there.

And the name that he provided for the dead man was Nathaniel Henry, who was already known to detectives. Okay. Nathaniel Henry was a 37 year old father of three and a basketball coach and youth mentor at the Damalola Taylor Centre in Peckham.

And for those of you who don't know about the Damalola Taylor Centre, go and listen to season two, episode one. Where I don't talk about the Damalola Taylor Centre. No, but you talk about Damalola Taylor.

If you want to know more about the centre, I'd Google it. But yes, you'll find out what the Damalola Taylor Foundation is, which is all linked to it. Anyway, small man.

Henry had been, I always find this interesting when you've got someone who's got two first names. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So his name is Nathaniel Henry.

We're going to call him Henry. Fine. Henry suffered from insomnia and depression, but friends described him as a true pillar of the community and a perfect neighbour.

He was known for his dedication to helping local children. He lived in Peckham Grove, Southwark, several miles away from the scene of the murder of the Browns, but quite close to where Marie is said to have lived. Right.

Henry had been on the list of 500 names at the beginning of the investigation with people who had some sort of connection. They were in some way connected to Noel Brown, his past crimes or his daughter Marie. And a preliminary background check had been conducted, which turned up not very much.

Okay. And especially nothing of note. And they kind of like, I think that he was known to them through proximity rather than any sort of concrete linkage.

So it was just kind of disregarded and he wasn't revisited because he wasn't considered somebody important. Henry had sent a message to a friend around the time of the murders, telling him, I'm going to be missing this week. I'm not my usual self.

And was not seen since the day after the murders. He was reported missing by his mum on December the 12th, a week after the bodies of the Browns were discovered. When he was reported missing, a search was conducted at his flat.

There was no sign of a disturbance, but the calendar in his flat had dates crossed out up until the 4th of December. Okay. Which is when police found the bodies.

Police diving teams searched the lakes and the sport hall that he worked at and the lake in Burgess Park. It was kind of sad when you said lakes. Lakes.

All those lakes in Peckham. There's quite a large one in Burgess Park. And they searched that one.

So on December the 31st, his body was found. He was clothed inside a locked community utility cupboard in the stairs leading to his flat around three weeks after they think he'd died. So the medical cause of death was the acute toxic effects of dipenhydramine, a common over-the-counter drug found in cough and flu remedies.

Don't tell me this while I've got a soother in my mouth. Sorry. DCI Simon Harding said he was lying down with a duvet covering his legs and wearing four layers of clothing.

He had personal effects with him, including his phone, some food with a sell-by date of December the 6th and a pack of tablets. The door lock was shoved with tissues from the inside and the key was attached to a set of his own keys. There were reports that he'd not been eating and had lost a lot of weight in the kind of final days that he was seen.

He was said to be taking antidepressants and he was registered at a South London mental health trust. And if you want to hear about those, there's an episode in season one that you can go and listen to. An ambulance crew member pronounced Henry dead at the scene at 11.25 on December the 31st.

Oh my God. Yeah. So he's holed up in a utility cupboard.

I mean, he obviously had a huge fucking mental break. He's had, yeah, something has happened and he's taken essentially like a massive overdose of cold and flu meds. Jeez.

Yeah. Dr Harris, who was the coroner in charge of the inquest into Nathaniel Henry's death, said that he would not record a suicide verdict and instead said that it was a drug-related death. Because he said that there was a degree of uncertainty over whether or not Henry had intended to take the tablets with the aim of ending his own life.

Because he was just hiding. Yeah. But then why would he take such large quantities or something? I don't know.

But then also, why would he have four layers of clothing on and a duvet in a utility cupboard that he'd stuffed with tissue to avoid letting people get in? Well, I mean, the four layers of clothing, the duvet and the cold and flu meds. Yeah, all make sense. All make sense together.

Yeah. Being in the cupboard, that's the bit that doesn't make sense. Unless you're hiding.

Yeah, but it's also... You're hiding and you also happen to have a cold. Yeah. But then your cause of death is the cold and flu tablets.

Yeah, but you're hiding, you've just committed two murders and dismembered a man. Like, you're obviously not... I'm not saying he did it, but whatever, we'll get to that. But like, then you're... So you want to hide because you've just done all this.

You've had a massive mental health issue anyway. So it could... Literally, the cold and flu tablets, I can see why the suicide verdict couldn't be steadfast, because there's no... Like, he might just have been taking the medicine because he'd had a cold, but also these other things were happening. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's true, it's true.

So Dr. Harris said, Henry was known to be stressed and suffering insomnia and depression before his death. An autopsy was conducted and reviewed by a forensic pathologist who concluded that there was no natural disease or injury found. The police concluded that the death was not suspicious.

But none of this was known to the team investigating the murders. However, at the time of their initial checks, he was, as far as anybody knew, alive. Okay.

So when they did the background checks, a DNA test confirmed in May of 2018 that Nathaniel Henry was unknown seven. Oh! Police, however, did not appear to have immediately told relatives that they were checking Nathaniel Henry or that they suspected any involvement in the double murder. And so there was a crowdfunding page set up in his memory in January, and it raised about £1,500 for his funeral.

It said, the wonderful man was last seen on the 5th of December at the Damalola Taylor Community Centre. The police tried tracking his phone, which hadn't been used since the call he made on the 5th. And they also checked to see if he had used his card to make any transactions or to withdraw any money, which he hadn't.

The police visited the home where he lived by himself and checked locations he was known to frequent. His passing has left a huge gaping hole in the community with many of the children he mentored struggling to deal with the news, said the page, which was written before police named Mr Henry a suspect. Nathaniel was said to be an all-round good guy who didn't have a bad word to say about anyone.

He was very loved and will be very greatly missed. He had two sons, including one at University in America and a daughter who paid tribute to him on the GoFundMe page. And she said that the funds would be used to pay for Mr Henry's son to return to the UK for his funeral.

And the funeral took place on the 5th of February in Camberwell. Well-wishers on the page described Mr Henry as a lovely person and a gentle giant. And apparently the door to Henry's flat appeared to have been smashed down by investigators and neighbours were really shocked at this.

Like a woman living in a home nearby had said that she would have been very surprised if he could have hurt anybody. He was a perfect neighbour, he was always very nice to her family. And she added, just a lovely guy who kept himself to himself.

He had a bike and was very active, very healthy. He didn't really have any visitors. Did he have a rucksack? I don't know.

He didn't really have any visitors but his kids came on and off. Barry Hargrove, the Cabinet Member for Communities, Leisure and Safety at Southwark Council, said, we are aware that a former volunteer has been linked to a police investigation and will support them with any enquiries because the Damalola Taylor Centre is run by the council and with support from the charity. DCI Rance said, I cannot deny that the elation of identifying the killer was tinged with disappointment that he was already deceased.

Officers said that they would have pressed murder charges had Henry not died from a suspected overdose but added that they were not looking for anybody else in connection with the killings of Noel and Marie. But still, why? Still, why? Dete... Deteif? Deteif! Oh, Deteif! It was Deteif! Detective Chief Inspector Harding said, whilst there can be no court proceedings in this case, we can say that we would have presented a file to the CPS to ask for double homicide charges and that we're not looking for anyone else in relation. So what was the conclusion to all of this? Due to laws designed to protect the identity of victims in certain offences, Scotland Yard is unable to provide details about any of the crimes that Noel and Marie committed but it is believed that somewhere, somehow, Henry was linked to one of Noel Brown's 33 different convictions.

They don't know if that is the sexual assaults or if it is the burglaries and they don't actually have concrete evidence. They must know, they just can't tell us. Potentially.

We're not being told any of this but they were essentially saying that when he was listed as someone who was in connection to the crime, he was very peripheral. Right. So again, I think that it's kind of like they're making an assumption, even though they can't tell us.

So they couldn't tell you about what had actually happened, like they couldn't announce the names of families, the girls who were attacked or anything like that. But it also seems very murky as to how it's all linked together. The killing seemed to be well planned as Henry was said to have taken a bizarre route from his home in Peckham to the murder scene, winding through various back streets for more than four miles.

It was suggested by one officer who was familiar with the case that this was indicative of counter-surveillance behaviour. Henry had been suffering from depression in the months before he died and was known to be in quite poor physical health. His last known communication with a friend was to tell him that he was tired and wanted to go to sleep.

A post-mortem examination concluded that Henry had died on December 5th, one day after the bodies were found in Deptford. So he was in the cupboard. Yeah.

He died in the cupboard on the 5th of December. Right. He was then found in the cupboard on December 31st.

But so that explains why everything stopped, like other than obviously the bodies were found, but like why he didn't go back again and actually finish the dismemberment or anything. Yeah, yeah. Detectives were still without any real clue as to what had prompted the crime to take place when it did.

And they were saying that if he was connected to any of the 33 crimes that Noel had committed, that crime had been committed years, if not decades, before December 2017 when they were actually... And when was... Sorry, you might not know, you might need to scroll. When was Noel released? 2004. So like if this had happened in 2006, you'd kind of get it, right? Or it'd feel more... More closely aligned.

Well, yeah, like more, yeah. But no, this is 2017. Unless he was just very, very, very fucking patient.

Exactly, who knows? But yeah, and then DCI Harding said, anyone hoping to exact revenge had by that stage, not done so with any great urgency. Asked if there was anything uncovered in the subsequent investigation that gave insight into planning or motivation, DCI Harding said, no, basically we couldn't see any form of pre-planning other than when he decided to go and do the murders. We looked back on CCTV to see if he was doing any form of reconnaissance around and we couldn't see anything at all.

The first time we see him is when he's going there to kill Noel. So weird. The investigation was partly hampered by the fact that officers were unable to unlock Henry's phone.

And this is the only part of the investigation which remains live. The rest of the investigation is now closed. The phone is the only bit that's still active and they're still not able to get into it, which feels bizarre.

And the subsequent investigations into all three deaths by a coroner simply focused on how and not why the deaths took place because they've got absolutely no idea. Everything is guessing. DCI Harding said, I think anyone in this circumstance would want somebody to face justice in the normal way that we would want in a court and to serve a long sentence for what they did to be punished.

I don't feel that the family are really content with the outcome, which is perfectly understandable. It's very difficult to not have their time to see the person that did this to their family face justice in the way that they probably should have done. And I think the other thing was, I read about it quite a lot, like again with the newspapers and how they kind of report on this, a lot of it was like, pedo man or sex offender killed and all of that.

But one of the things that I found quite interesting was that DCI Harding and DCI Rance are quoted quite a lot as having said that he had, yes, he'd done these things. Terrible things. He had paid his dues, he'd been released and he had not offended since.

So if you are a believer in like rehabilitation and the power of incarceration for good. This is an example of where it seems to have done what it was supposed to have done. And so, yeah, it's a kind of then, and I think Marie as well, like Marie's death was just completely unnecessary and it was, you know, she was there checking up on her dad.

I also think for some reason, I called her Nicole earlier, just pointing out that I've realised that. Apologies. I didn't notice it.

But yeah, so the fact that they haven't been able to see justice for their family is really sad. And then Sharon Brown, who's another of Noel's daughters, right, okay, said, the family of Noel Brown would like him to be remembered as a valued man and a caring father. This is a devastating loss that has robbed us of his presence unfairly, made worse by the knowledge that no one is being brought to justice for this crime.

Noel Brown was a jovial, kind person who was known as a loyal friend. He did not deserve to die in this horrific way. Life has not been the same since we learned of his brutal murder.

For the last two years, we've experienced acute shock, severe anxiety and depression, struggling to carry on with our lives when nothing will ever be the same again. It's harder to work, socialise or even feel safe in our homes. When a family member is lost in this way, life can't go back to what it used to be.

We will be haunted for the rest of our lives by this crime and the suffering Noel endured in his final hours. And then Cassandra, who's Marie Brown's half-sister, and also, so it's a quote that's from both, Cassandra, who's her half-sister, and Venetia, who is her daughter. Right, okay.

It was from them both. They've said, As a family, we have really struggled to come to terms with the death of our lovely Marie. It has been nearly two years since she was taken from us, and we are still in pain.

All Marie ever did was care for everyone. Even in her final moments of life, she was doing her best to care for people. She was extremely kind and gentle, the sort of person to give you the last of anything she had.

We will never understand why she was robbed from us. Marie was everything, and we miss her so much. As we said two years ago, to know Marie would to be to know how much time she dedicated to her children and how she constantly wanted to help people, especially her father, who she loved and deeply cared for.

He was a humble man who was creative and kept to himself. It's a terrible thing that the evil in this world cost us something as innocent as Marie. We thank everyone who came forward with information, and we would like to thank the Met Police for carrying out the investigation.

We're grateful for all the support that has been extended to our family during this terrible time, and we would now like to privately mourn the loss of Marie and continue with our lives. There are many things which we have started that Marie would have been so proud of, and we intend to finish them. Marie's name will never be forgotten.

And so that is the really perplexing case of Noel and Marie Brown. God. Can you see now while my brain was sort of like, what the fuck? Yeah, what the hell? It's mad.

It is mad. And I'm like, so sad. Yeah.

It's a really difficult one, I think, because you start off reading about it, and before it was made public about Noel's convictions and the fact that there were, he was on the sex offenders register. I don't know the details of that case, and I can't find them. No.

They're not publicly available. So I can't go into any sort of real depth about them other than the fact that they happened. Yeah.

But it's such, I think the moment that you put that there are young children and sexual offences into this, suddenly the lines of what's right and what's... Obviously the lines of sympathy get completely blown away. Completely blurred. Yeah, of course they do.

And at the end of the day, he was a convicted rapist. He was. I understand.

And we said it a minute ago about rehabilitation and like he hadn't offended again. That we know of. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Allegedly. Yeah, allegedly. Like all of that stuff.

But he was still a convicted rapist. You are still. Yeah.

And so it's kind of like, I think that for me, the story, and obviously, I would hope that there is some restorative justice in our justice system. I think that there is some hope for people. I don't even know how, I mean, I could probably work out.

Who am I talking about? I can't work out the maths. But I was going to say, I was trying to work out. I don't know how old he was.

I could probably work it out. But yeah, but there's a load of really big, like, chasms almost of how do you feel about this? How does this work? It was supposed, we don't even know if it was linked to that. No, no, exactly.

The vigilante nature of it could be a complete and utter red herring. But it's baffling. It must keep like.

I mean, it's like, it'll be annoying for us. It'll be annoying for the Trevors. But those detectives being like, what had Henry, what Nathaniel Henry got anything to do with Noel? Yeah.

Like, what was the link? Like, what the fuck? Yeah. Why? And why then? Because I think that's the other point. However many years after he was released.

Because if you think like, so he's arrested in, he's convicted in 99. He's released in 2004. And then the murders happen in 2017.

But there's no, again, as we know of, allegedly, there's no criminal activity. In between. In between 2004 and 2017.

So if we do think it's linked to one of the past crimes, why would you wait that long? Unless, as we've said, it was just a bit of a psychotic break. And a trigger of some sort. Oh, wow.

It's insane. And I just think it's absolutely devastating that Marie. Oh God, yeah.

She got caught up in it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, unless.

No, I think she's just very much caught up in it. And I think that that was also the other thing that was quite sad when researching it. Because, of course, the sensationalist elements of this kind of come out to the, like, come to the fore when you're reading about it.

But it's almost, again, like, we've said it where you get people who are lost in their own murders. Like, Marie very much gets lost in it. Which is why I wanted to put that whole quote in at the end.

Yeah, of course. About her, because she was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. And she was just trying to be a good person, checking up on her father.

And I think, again, that, like, the family and Noel's friends and, you know, all of those people who have had such good things to say about him. It's obvious that he was living his life in a slightly different way. To have that many people say those things about you.

Yeah, you've got to have. You know, it's got to have been something positive. But yeah, it's just.

There's something as well about Nathaniel dying in the cupboard. That, like, it's just so fucking sad. Yeah.

Oh, it's awful. It is awful. It's just so sad.

It's one of those things where it's like, if you made it into a. If you, if this was fictional, you'd kind of be like, all right, come on. Yeah, it's a bit too much now. It's almost a little bit far fetched as well.

I don't know. There's like the images in your brain. And this is so, I know it's very different.

Do you remember when we were at school? I think we were still at school. I'm pretty sure. And there was a young teenage girl who died of a drug overdose.

And she was in, like, child's pose, like the yoga pose. And that image was everywhere. It was everywhere.

Do you know how haunting? Oh, I know. I can still see it. I can see it.

It makes me cold. I literally have goosebumps. So like, it worked for their parents, like what the parents are trying to do.

But it's like, I don't know, for some reason, it reminds me of that, like that, like. You could be completely functioning as a member of society. Yeah.

And then something will just snap. Yeah. And you will end up in a cupboard wearing four layers of clothing.

Yeah. Whether you mean to kill yourself or not. Yeah.

Like it's haunting. It's chilling. But it's also it's things like, I, I kind of think that.

And that's regardless if you're a murderer or not. Well, exactly. Yeah, no, no.

But it's also like, I kind of think it's quite interesting that like, when you look at, in isolation, the stuff doesn't necessarily mean anything. So like the fact that there is a, the calendar's crossed off until the 4th of December. Well, like, all right, he's gone missing.

So that's why it's that. But it's when you know what happened and the fact that like the food that he had in the cupboard had a sell-by date of the 6th. And all of like, there's, it's just, it's kind of, it's got this weird element of like, if you'd, if it was fictional, which obviously it's not, but if you set it in Victorian London, it would have the makings of a quality Sherlock episode.

Yeah. It's, it's very, yeah, there's just a lot of, and even though like technically the case is solved, they have said that they believe that Nathaniel Henry killed them. And they have the DNA connecting him and all the rest of it.

But the fact that there is no trial, the fact that there is no, there's no opportunity. And there's no opportunity to kind of understand what the fuck happened. Yeah.

It's just. Oh, I hate it when we'll never know why. I know.

I know. I'm sorry. I've done one of them again.

But, but yeah, it's, yeah. Wow. Well done, mate.

Thanks. That was fascinating. It was a good one.

There was lots of, um, yeah. It was a good, yeah. Great.

It was a good, there was a good, there's a good story there. Cause you get lots of twists and stuff. I think we all know what we mean by good by now.

If you still think we're here going, yeah, yay, they died. Then I don't think we're the podcast for you. No, maybe, maybe just, maybe just move on.

Yeah. So that's the story. Um, and I think.

There's probably only really the nice stuff to do at the end now, isn't it? Yeah. I yeah. Wow.

Anyway, I'll be thinking about that for ages now. Sorry. I've put a little, uh, a little worm in your brain.

But yes, Hannah has started responding to emails. I really, really didn't know where you were going with that. Hannah started.

I was like, no, I fucking haven't. I ain't done nothing. I don't know what you're talking about.

Um, yeah, I've been, I've been replying. You've been replying to emails. I'm a good girl.

It's all cool. So if you want to drop Hannah an email and see if you can get a response from her, then please do. So that's sinister south pod cast at gmail.com. Yeah, that sounds about right.

Sounds about right. And then we've got the Instagram, which is sinister south pod over on Instagram. We've got the website, which is all there.

Deep dive into some of the cases that we've covered and have a little sneak peek at what might be coming up next. Might be because we might change. We might just change it on a whim in the tiny shed.

I just walk in and be like, I've done a completely different case. Or I go, you've got five to pick from which one we haven't. Yeah.

So, so yeah. So there's that. You can go and have a look at that.

TikTok, just because everyone's talking about TikTok and this might help with any sort of algorithms. We were really worried about our American listeners not being able to find us on TikTok. By the fact that we've not updated it.

It was a real concern. And that we've not posted anything on it in about eight months. But there we go.

That is still there. And if you want to see more of the stuff, I could put some of the reels on there. But I was going to say you've been doing.

I know, my little reels. Have you done a single sinister south short since I featured? I did one. I did that last Friday.

Oh, you did the update for Jimmy Mizen. So yeah, that was interesting. If anyone didn't see it, there was a an update to the Jimmy Mizen case.

So his killer, Jake Fari, was released from prison in 2023 and has now since been released on license. And he has since been recalled because he was said to be a drill artist who went under the name of Ten. He always wore a balaclava on his face, but you can find him on Tinterwebs.

And they were basically saying that he was inciting violence in his songs. And there's quite a few references that they believe to the murder of Jimmy Mizen in his songs. But there's also an investigation into the BBC because BBC One Extra played one of his tracks as an up and coming artist in the drill.

That's a researcher getting fucking fired, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, but he's been recalled to prison, so he's back in there. But you can go and watch my little floating head to tell you that exact same thing.

I was just about to say, listen, you're being rubbish at what you just said. Go to the Instagram if you want to know. Well, I'm thinking that I'm probably going to do a bit of an update, a proper deep dive into it over on Patreon.

I've got another update for the Patreon as well, which is on Sabina Ness's killer. So, yeah, so we're going to launch a Patreon. The Patreon that is still in production.

So we've done, we've recorded a few episodes. I'm waiting for young William, William, to get on and top and tail them. Insert editor's mode.

I'm doing them. That's all right. There will be, if we can get him to just come on and be like, This is an unpaid position.

We could just come on and be like, the estimated timeline is. But yeah, so he's editing those and then once they're there, we will launch. So we'll let you know.

But yeah, there'll be some more updates over there, I would imagine, as well as some other cases that we wanted to do, but that aren't quite long enough to do a proper full length episode on the main feed, as the podcasters say. So, yeah, so you can come and find us over there eventually. I think that's about it, mate, innit? I reckon so.

Covered everything off. You've got an absolute fucking shit show of a case next. It's just like, it's fucking harrowing.

Yeah, yeah. I don't know how else to put it. Great.

So buckle up for that one, lads. We're about to go and record it. Yeah, wish me luck.

And if you want to know how harrowing it is, I've taken up real cigarettes again. And which I think is completely unrelated to my cough. Yeah, I didn't think that one.

All right, then. Well, thank you, Trevor, as always. We love you.

There's only one thing left to say, really. Yeah, and that is. Go on then, small man.

Bye.