A mothers breaking point: The Clarence Children

This episode is one of the most heart breaking and complex cases we've ever covered—the tragedy of the Clarence children. In 2014, Tania Clarence, a devoted mother caring for three severely disabled children, reached an unimaginable breaking point.

What led to this tragedy? How did a mother, battling exhaustion and isolation, fall through the cracks of a failing system? And what lessons can be learned from the serious case review that followed?

This episode could be an incredibly difficult listen, and we won't be mad if you’re affected by discussions of mental health crises or child loss and decide against this one!

Before we dive into it, expect a chat about misadventures, questionable WhatsApp messages, and Richard’s near-disastrous lads' holiday (because trust us, you’ll need it).

Sources include:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-34898895

https://www.hundredfamilies.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/r-v-clarence-.pdf

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/tania-clarence-trial-her-children-lay-dead-in-their-beds-toys-arranged-lovingly-around-them-9862448.html

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/nov/23/husband-of-tania-clarence-rejects-report-into-childrens-deaths

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/12011350/Tania-Clarence-serious-case-review-into-mother-who-smothered-three-children.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/tania-clarence-sentenced-depressed-new-malden-mother-detained-under-hospital-order-for-killing-her-three-disabled-children-9867666.html

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/mother-tania-clarence-who-killed-three-children-handed-hospital-order-9867476.html

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/24/friends-speak-tania-clarence-struggle-care-disabled-children

https://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/professionals-missed-chances-to-save-tragic-trio-from-mother/?utm_source=chatgpt.com 

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Also, follow us on Instagram @SinisterSouthPodcast for sneak peeks, behind-the-scenes content, and more cheeky banter, or www.sinistersouthpod.co.uk. Remember, every crime tells a story... and South is the best side of the river...

Produced and hosted by Hannah Williams & Rachel Baines
Mixed & edited by Purple Waves Sound (A.K.A Will)

Transcript

The Clarence Children

Hello, I'm Rachel, I'm Hannah and this is the Sinister South podcast, a podcast all about the strange and unusual, sinister and menacing, and in this particular case, fucking harrowing shit that happens in South London. Indeed it is. How are you, my love? Yeah, I'm all good, babe, I'm all good, just living my life.

Yeah, life be lifin' or? Life, it's all right, work's really busy, and all of that stuff, but it just, that is what it is and it's fine, I'm not moaning about it particularly. Yeah, all good, just been, just, yeah, just around and about, I don't know, around and about, up and down, left and right, like, you know, I was trying to say, I was saying to you a minute ago, wasn't I, I was like, trying to think like, oh God, like, feel like I've not been going out or anything, and I'd promised a drunken escapade and everything, hadn't I? But I have got a drunken escapade story, but it's not necessarily mine. Oh mate, I'm here for it.

So whether this makes the main, like, whether it gets cut or not, who knows? We'll see, we'll see. I mean, to be fair, it's too good a story not to tell. This wasn't funny at the time, can I just say, this was not funny.

No, to be fair, at the time, I think both of us were going through it, me in terms of, what the fuck do I say? So Richard went on a boys weekend away to Bratislava. As you do. As you do.

It was one of his friend's 40th, and apparently it was cheaper than Butlin's, so. I mean, that doesn't surprise me, does not surprise me. So yeah, Richard went away.

And look, Richard and I, I think we've discussed this before, right? We're not in constant contact throughout the day. We don't WhatsApp all day long or anything like that. And we can go days without talking if he's not at home, or sometimes he'll stay at his mum's because of convenience, for location and stuff like that.

And we don't necessarily, like... You're not in each other's pockets all the time. Very much so, that we're not. So I wasn't expecting hundreds of love WhatsApps over this weekend, right? I was very much like, he's going to go, he's going to get fucking hammered.

He's going to have a good time. He'll come home. He'll tell me about it.

Anyway, I am who I am, right? Yeah. And I had messaged a couple of times and got very, like, one word. Yeah.

Great. Fine. Yeah.

Responses. And I was a bit like, I don't need a lot, but I could have had a sentence. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was at home, minding my own business. I'd had some friends over.

Yep. That had been great. It'd been lovely to see them.

There had potentially been a fair amount of wine. Yeah, fair, fair, fair. Relieved from its position within the bottle.

And it got to like, I think they left, it was quite late. So I think they left mine at like 2am. Right, okay.

So I'm in bed, kind of thinking, oh, I'm tired, but I'm drunk. Someone find my iPhone. Of course you are, yeah.

Why wouldn't I be? Why wouldn't you be? And I just don't remember what time it was, but it was around, it was the early hours of the morning, right? And I WhatsApped to it, didn't get a response, was a bit like, right, okay, fine. Out of sight, out of mind. Well, like, just thinking like, oh, at least a drunken, like, oh, I love you, I do this.

Like, whatever. Like, me too, like, I'm drunk too. Nothing.

So there I am, I'm finding my iPhone. And there's Richard's phone. Very statically in one location.

I'm only laughing because I know what's coming. And I was thinking, okay. Okay.

Let's not freak out. Let's not freak out. So obviously I screenshotted it.

Yeah. Just to be like, okay. Went to sleep, woke up.

First thing I did, not even going to like, try and hide my craziness. I'm a nightmare. Wrapped in a daydream.

I'm a nightmare, but I've got a great rack. Yeah, exactly. Swings around about.

Exactly, mate. So the first thing I did was find my iPhone. Yeah.

Oh, still in the same location. So I Google this apparent club. Establishment.

This establishment that Richard is. It's been in for hours now. For up to kind of six hours now.

And well, this was, it was a brothel. She sent me the link. So after this happened, I got a WhatsApp message from Hannah going, random question.

Would you be annoyed if Will went to a strip club? And I replied, no, probably not. But like different circumstances or whatever, but no. And I said, my reply back to you was like, I think I'm okay with it.

Like, I think I'd be all right with it. I don't know if I'd love it. Yeah.

But what about if it was this place? And listeners, my targeted ads are not in the same sense. Mate, you think you've got it bad. Do you know the rabbit hole about prostitution, sex work and the red light district in Slovakia that I went down? I can imagine.

Do you know how many single ladies in my area are waiting for me? Are they all called Natalia? They are all waiting for me. All I've got to do is click. Honest to God, I opened the link.

I saw what it was. I just went, oh, fuck. And then I was sitting there thinking, how do I defuse this situation? So like, I'm like, I don't know what to do.

Right. I know that if I try and confront him over WhatsApp, I mean, he's already not replied to me. Yeah.

Or been online on WhatsApp. So this is at like eight something in the morning or whatever. Already hadn't been online.

And no, no, sorry. When I messaged you, I think I waited. I think I waited till like 10 something or maybe 11 something before I messaged you.

Yeah, yeah. And so I screenshot again that he hadn't been online or he came online at like eight something or other or nine something or other. I can't remember exactly.

And I was like, if I confront him over WhatsApp, I'm just going to get met with silence. Like I'm not going to be able to gauge his reaction. I'm not going to like, yeah, whatever.

And it just doesn't. It kind of takes it puts me on the back foot. Of course it does.

And also, what are you going to say? And everything is warfare. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And what I'm what's he going to say? Like, what am I going to say? Like, were you in a way? Did you spend up to about eight hours in a brothel last night? And his response was, yes, yes.

Or no, like. So I'm like, OK, well, just got to get through Sunday and he'll be back Monday night. So just got to just got to get through these times.

Fine. So ever the compartmentalist. Thanks, grief.

I love it. I put that in a little box and put it in the back of my mind. And I went on with my life being very cold.

The messaging to the point where, like the time he got chattiest on WhatsApp was when he got to the airport to come home because I had vaguely intimated that I might pick him up from Luton. Ah, fine, fine, fine, fine. I think the flight takes off for about three ish.

What are your plans? Just didn't reply. Good girl. Good girl.

Didn't even say safe flight, which I did in my head because I was so superstitious. I was like, oh, my God, he's going to crash and burn. But it was also you messaged him, didn't you? And then it was how was last night.

And his only response was hanging. Yeah, I don't. I feel fine.

And then he was like, I lied. I do not feel OK. I thought you might feel ropey.

Anyway, he walks in. And he's obviously knackered. He's obviously hung over and like, oh, and they probably had drinks at the airport on that day as well.

Like, you know, that kind of. But, you know, when you've been traveling and then you kind of get to that point, you're like, oh, for fuck's sake. Yeah.

So he walked in and I was like, you're right. Yeah. Do you have a good time? Yeah.

Well, where did you go? What did you do? Just kind of bars. And there was a couple of clubs and I went to a hockey game and I went to a castle and I went and a brothel. He went, what? I didn't go to a brothel.

I went, you did. I didn't. I didn't.

You did. What are you talking about? I was like, I've got proof of it. Here's the screenshots of your phone in that location.

Yeah. No, no, no. I did lose my phone.

Like, what? And I was like, a likely story. The flags are still up. I'm still like, I'm still heckled to the max.

I'm like, no. So the story is they are in pubs and bars, it's getting later and later. They want to go to a nightclub.

They all get a cab to, or there's like multiple cabs to the nightclub. They're not allowed in without their passports. Okay.

So then there's another cab to the hotel where they pick up their passports and then yet another cab back to the club. Yeah. It's only once Richard is inside said club, probably a little bit later.

A while later, he wasn't sure how long he'd been in the club before he realised he didn't have his phone anymore. Right. And all then like, fuck, where's it gone or whatever.

They get on, like, whatever. They end up back at, like, they go back to the hotel. One of his friends, very kindly, he's the one that booked the last cab.

Yeah. Managed to get hold of the cab driver and paid him 20 quid to bring the phone to the hotel. Right.

Which he did, which is when he came online at about eight-ish or nine-ish, whatever it was. So, immediately I was like, that's exactly what I would say if I'd spent eight hours in a brothel. Because I am who I am.

So I was like, yeah, sure. I believe you, whatever. Blame the poor cab driver who's just trying to earn a living.

All the cab drivers felt the cab driver took it. If the cab driver jumped off a cliff, would you? Like, very, very, like, giving, like, minimal response. Yeah, fair.

Anyway, he's then, immediately he's texting. And I'm like, listen, I'm right here. Like, you could talk to me about this.

He's like, no, no, wait, wait, wait. He was like, he knew that there was a video of him dancing really terribly in this club that was timestamped. So he's in the group chat being like, I need evidence, boys.

I need evidence. One of them, one of them replied. I'm really sorry this is happening to you.

But it is the funniest fucking thing I've ever heard. Only you could lose your phone to a man that then goes and parks up and visits a brothel for that long with your phone in his car. And you're almost just finding that out.

Like, when I tell you I had fucking zero sense of humor. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Zero.

Until, like, the last couple of days. I've been like, that is pretty fucking hilarious, to be honest. And listeners, I have seen said video and can confirm the dancing is awful.

But then he was saying to me, like, well, would you have believed me without the timestamped videos and stuff like that, without the proof from the boys? And like, the one of the boy that got the phone back for him has the conversation with the cab driver, like getting the phone back, has the proof that he took 20 quid out. So we've dotted the i's and we've crossed the t's. Contractually, I feel, I feel secure in believing this.

And like, there was a part of me that was like, I can't really see Richard. Like, he's really like, I just can't see him using a brothel anyway. He wouldn't do that to you.

He would not do that to you. But I do remember when you said to me what had happened before you sent me the video. I was like, um, do I think it does sound very far fetched.

But then it also does sound like your partner. Yeah, exactly. Like something Richard would do.

And if I didn't know him so well, and if I hadn't seen him, if I hadn't been responsible for us exiting cabs for the last four and a half, five years. And like, I now do it even if it's just me doing like the complete sweep. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Of the back of the car being like, just in case. I mean, on our first date, was it our first date or second date? It was our first date. He left a bag in the back of a cab.

And there's never got over losing that, the t-shirt that was in the bag. But also that, that's another story. But I messaged the cab driver because it had been me that had paid, like I'd booked it.

And, um, and I had messaged this cab driver so intently, intensely, sorry, about trying to get this bag back that his wife rang me and asked me to cease and desist. I did not know that story. That is amazing.

That is amazing. So like, he has got form for losing things and he is like, just inherently, what's the word, just clumsy in that way. So it does like, it's funny now.

And I believe the story now. It 100% tracks with who he is as a person. But at the time, you cannot imagine the kind of anger induced work I did on Monday.

And like the headspace I was in. I honestly don't know how you didn't say anything. When I got those fucking steps in on Sunday and those steps in on Monday, that was like, that was a storm around South London.

I was gonna say, like, mate, honest. I mean, I think you should have gone and found the paving slab then because you would have had. No, it was just me.

It was also like, at one point walking in the rain, listening to Mad World. Oh dear, oh my love. I honestly don't know how you left it as long as you did to confront him.

Because I knew I had to do it in person. Because it's not necessarily for him. For me, it would have been the only way I'd ever believe him.

Yeah, if I saw his face. Yeah, fair, fair, fair, fair. I mean, I wish I'd filmed it because his face when he was going, went to the bars, went to some clubs, went for food, like, went to the hockey, went to a castle and I just went, a brothel.

His face is a fucking picture. He was like, what? Oh, I mean, honestly, it is a story. I love it.

It's my favourite story of recent times. Fuck's sake. Yeah, it was, like, when I knew that everything was fine, I just remember turning around to Will and being like, listen.

I will not be as chill. Yeah. Oh, dear.

Oh, mate. It was that when he, before. When he was, because the Find My iPhone screenshot just said, like, it was called Merlin.

Yeah. Anyone wants to Google it? Merlin Club in Bratislava. And he was like, no, we did go to a nightclub.

Like, that's just, it's got the mirrorball sign on it. It's just a nightclub. Yeah.

He's like, it doesn't look exactly like, because this looks like it's in some kind of, like, forest. Yeah. It's a building in the middle of a forest.

But, like, we were, like, in town. It was a club. So maybe I just didn't look out the window when the cab dropped us off.

Like, I was like, Richard, Google that club. Yeah. And they sent him the link.

And he was like, his face is just, like, getting greyer and greyer. Like, holy shit. It was just, yeah, yeah.

It was a fascinating little foray on the internet into that website. But it does, like, Richard, if you're listening, like, just be aware. I will find out.

She will find out. And I will wait. Until I'm ready.

It will be when you least expect it. But what I did also love was the fact that you were like, there is definitely a glitch on my iPhone. Because otherwise, my mum has been in Sainsbury's for two days.

I wasn't worried about that. Poor woman might be dead in the car park. And I was like, oh, whatever.

Richard's in a brothel! She's just really stuck trying to pick between olive oil and vegetable oil. It's a very big decision. I'm just more annoyed that she's not answering the phone so that I can lament about my boyfriend being a shithead.

How do I fit locked in Sainsbury's for two days? I must admit, it did as much. And again, only once I had realised that it had all had a positive conclusion. But it did make my day on Saturday.

I was like, oh, now I get to be detected. I was like the Charlie Day meme from Always Sunny. You really were.

I was piecing it together with my red string. How are you? Oh, I'm all right. I don't have a story to follow that up with, mate.

We'll save what I was going to say for the next one. That's too good. But I think we probably did need some of this gaiety.

Oh, we really did. Because what I'm about to dive into. It's not fun.

It's not fun. I think we mentioned this on the last episode that you did at the end, where we kind of say about, like, full disclosure, Hannah's going to do a really harrowing one next. I think I said it then, but I'm going to say it again now.

Like, I put this down on the list because I'd seen the name pop up and I was like, I know that somewhere. And then we were going through, like, which ones are you going to do? Which ones are you going to do? And you were like, yeah, fine. I'll do that one.

And I kind of like, not really thought about the case, like recognize names that hadn't really looked into it. And then when I was looking for pictures to use on the website, it obviously told me about and I remember going, oh, oh, oh, this. I remember this happening.

This is fucking mental. So I think I'm sure Hannah will do her own disclaimers and whatever. But I would just say, like, buckle up.

So, yeah, it's it's a difficult one. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, like usual, all the references will be in the show notes and all of that stuff.

But yeah, this is the case of Tanya Clarence. So the case of Tanya Clarence stands as one of the most haunting tragedies in recent memory, exposing the profound psychological toll of caregiving and the systemic gaps in support for families facing extraordinary challenges. I want to say that whilst we are a true crime podcast and I stand by what we are doing and why we are doing it, not all cases fit into easy to define boxes.

I thought for hours about the title of this episode and how we handle it, but we don't shy away from difficult stories. Yeah. So this episode is going to be hard going.

There are multiple victims, not at least those that lost their lives, but also those around them. It is also important to recognise, as we did in the episode about mental health provision in South London, that whilst there are systematic failures and issues in care provision that will be discussed in this episode, I recognise fully that there are a lot of good people out there trying to do their best. Unlike this dog.

Yeah, just people trying to do their best. And finally, understandably, a lot of information about individuals in this case were kept private. That includes things like Tanya's maiden name and details of her kind of life.

Well, there's bits and bobs, but yeah. This was done on purpose, so I didn't feel it relevant or important to dig too deep, just out of respect for the decisions that were already made to protect the people that were caught up in all of this. So yes, let's begin.

Tanya was born in 1971 in South Africa, where she grew up in a close-knit family. Described as intelligent, creative and ambitious, after completing her education, she pursued a career in graphic design and built a promising future for herself. In 1994, Tanya met Gary Clarence, a South African investment banker, and the two quickly formed a strong bond.

Tanya and Gary Clarence moved to the UK after their wedding in South Africa in 1997. The exact year of their relocation, or the exact time of their relocation, isn't specified. However, it is known that they settled in New Malden, South London, and that Gary secured a position as a director at Investec.

Wow, that's pretty high up. The couple were fortunate to be pretty financially stable, and they were known to live a comfortable, but not outlandish or lavish lifestyle. So yeah, they were affluent, but they weren't like driving around in top-of-the-range cars and wearing clothes once and throwing them away or anything like, you know what I mean? So by the early 2000s, Tanya and Gary were keen to start a family.

Their first child, I think it's Taya. Okay. It's T-A-Y-A.

Okay. So I'm going to say Taya. It could be Taya, I think.

Yeah. But I think it's Taya. Taya, yeah.

Their first child, Taya, was born in 2006, a happy, healthy baby girl who was adored by her new parents. Gary and Tanya were said to have taken to being parents like ducks to water and were keen to expand their family. However, the couple did sadly suffer a series of devastating miscarriages, which obviously took their toll on the pair, both emotionally and for Tanya very physically as well.

Yeah, I can imagine. But the couple did not give up hope. And in 2008, they fell pregnant again, this time successfully maintaining the pregnancy.

On the 15th of June 2009, they welcomed their second daughter, Olivia, into the family. Olivia's birth was a healthy and straightforward one with no immediate complications. Despite the chaos of having two children already, Tanya and Gary remained committed to their dream of having a large family.

Right. And by early 2010, Tanya was pregnant again, this time with twins. Wow.

Of course, because of it being a multiple pregnancy, Tanya was considered high risk, especially accounting for the history of miscarriage. Yeah. And as such, the family were advised to take life as easy as possible.

This prompted a family trip to Portugal, where they would unwind in the sunshine and relax as much as parents can relax with two young children in tow on holiday. Yeah, yeah, yeah. However, it was during this trip that Tanya unexpectedly went into labour.

In July 2010, Max and Ben were born at just 26 weeks. The twins required immediate intensive care and spent approximately four months in a neonatal unit in Portugal. Oh, my God.

Where they were closely monitored and supported with specialised equipment to aid their development. Their premature birth placed them at a high risk for various health complications, and every milestone in those early weeks was hard fought. During this time, Gary's parents were able to take Tanya and Olivia home to South Africa with them.

So that the couple could focus on Max and Ben. During their time in South Africa, the paternal grandparents started to note some concerns with Olivia's development. They were so concerned, in fact, that they decided that Olivia should receive a medical assessment.

So a South African paediatrician conducted a series of assessments examining Olivia's physical condition and motor functions. Observations of muscle weakness and her inability to achieve typical milestones, such as crawling and sitting independently, led to further investigation. After thorough evaluations, Olivia was diagnosed with Spinal Muscular Atrophy, SMA, Type 2. A severe genetic disorder that affects the development and function of voluntary muscles.

The diagnosis was relayed to Tanya and Gary, who were still in Portugal navigating the complexities of their twin son's neonatal care. The news came as a devastating blow, as SMA Type 2 is a progressive life-limiting condition that would profoundly affect Olivia's quality of life. The couple quickly began to research SMA and sought advice from medical experts in both South Africa and the UK to better understand how they could support their daughter.

So SMA Type 2 often presents symptoms within the first two years of life, impacting gross motor skills whilst sparing cognitive abilities. Right, okay. For Olivia, this meant she would likely never walk independently and would require specialised equipment, therapies and ongoing medical care to manage complications such as respiratory issues.

Wow. Sorry, did you say that it limits? It's life-limiting. No, no, no.

I mean, like, is it physical as well as cognitive? No, it's not. It spares cognitive development. So your brain develops as normal.

Pretty much as normal, but your body doesn't. But your body just doesn't want to play games. Oh, God.

So the family faced the daunting reality that Olivia's condition would demand significant adjustments to their lives. This would include, obviously, adapting their home to accommodate her needs, coordinating with specialists and introducing therapies to improve her mobility and comfort. Despite the emotional toll, Tanya and Gary focused on providing Olivia with as much support and love as possible, despite the distance between them at the time.

Yeah. God, can you imagine that? You are a world... You might as well be on a completely different planet. That's how far away you must feel.

Bless them. So as the boys grew stronger, arrangements were made to transfer them to a UK hospital in October of 2010 to continue their care closer to home. By November 2010, Max and Ben were discharged from the hospital and the family were reunited and able to return to their home in South London to begin their new, albeit much more complex, life together as a family of six.

But life was going to be anything but easy for the family. The twins remained under close medical supervision and doctors monitored their developmental progress. Despite initial hope that they might not be affected by the same condition as Olivia, signs began to emerge that the twins were facing similar challenges.

Medical assessments confirmed that both Max and Ben also had spinal muscular atrophy, type 2, the exact same condition as their older sister. The diagnosis added a new layer of complexity and heartbreak for the Clarence family. Following the diagnosis of Olivia, Max and Ben, Tanya Clarence's daily life became increasingly consumed by the extensive medical care required for her children.

Whilst Gary remained a doted and loving father, he needed to return to work to ensure the family remained financially stable. This left Tanya as the main caregiver. Perhaps a moment here to like, just to think, like being a new mum to four very young children is tough enough.

Then you add in that three of them are significantly disabled. I, I just like, I can't, it's, it's, um, yeah. And also dealing with the trauma of having such early babies as well.

And the, I mean, you know that that hits, of course, it's different. Uh, yeah. Christ.

Okay. So the medical team around them proposed several interventions aimed at prolonging life. These included like spiritual support, feeding support, and incredibly invasive interventions, including like orthopaedic interventions as well.

So the parents expressed concerns about the physical and emotional burden of some of the suggested treatments. The emotional divide between the family and healthcare teams became particularly pronounced when Tanya and Gary advocated for do not resuscitate orders for their children. The parent for the currencies, this decision was rooted in love and a desire to protect their children from prolonged suffering.

Exactly. However, to some medical professionals, it represented a rejection of potentially lifesaving measures. But what sort of life? Sorry, we'll get into that at the end.

Yeah. Tanya's frustration with the healthcare system was well evidenced. She's quoted as saying, Gary and I do love our children, just not in the way you want us to.

Yeah. This poignant remark encapsulated the philosophical divide between the family's view of care, which centered on the quality of life and the medical establishment's focus on extending life through all available means. Yeah.

Well, I mean, I suppose if you're a doctor, you've taken an oath, haven't you? Exactly. Yeah, but still. For Tanya and Gary, comfort and dignity took precedence, even if it meant declining treatments that could have extended their children's lives.

The tension left Tanya feeling isolated in her caregiving role. While some healthcare professionals supported her perspective, others were less understanding, creating a sense of alienation. The ongoing struggle to reconcile differing priorities placed an immense strain on Tanya.

We felt torn between advocating for her children's well-being and navigating a medical system she believed did not fully understand their needs. Sorry. Friends and healthcare professionals who interacted with Tanya observed her deteriorating mental health.

Reports described her as frequently tired and tearful, with a notable ongoing low mood. Despite these visible signs of strain, Tanya often downplayed the extent of her emotional struggles. Offers of professional mental health support were made, but she declined, either out of fear of stigma, the prioritisation of her children's needs, or a belief that external help would not alleviate her challenges.

Over time, the family was involved with approximately 60 different professionals, including doctors, therapists, health visitors and social workers. 60! While these individuals were intended to support the family, the extensive involvement created feelings of scrutiny and emotional exhaustion for Tanya. A serious case review later revealed a recurring lack of coordination amongst these professionals.

Disagreements over the appropriate care for the children resulted in conflicting advice, leaving Tanya to reconcile these differences on her own. The review also noted that assumptions about the family's affluent middle-class status likely influenced the response from social services. There appeared to be a perception that the Clarences could manage independently, which led to missed opportunities to provide effective safeguarding or mental health support.

Financial status If your mental health is severely impacted by the fact you're in terrible debt, then of course there's a direct correlation. But if you're dealing with something so absolutely earth-shatteringly difficult, no amount of money is going to make that better. Like, they're your children.

Exactly. And you're having to deal with the fact that they're not going to live as long as you. You're going to see your children die.

You will be burying them at some point. Like, and you live with that from the moment you find out. Like, it's insane.

Yeah. One particularly striking observation came from the serious case review, which noted that professionals failed to acknowledge the intolerable strain Tanya was under as the primary caregiver. And that is their words.

Yeah. The professionals that were in Tanya's life most days had put in notes, she's under intolerable strain. Yet nothing, nothing was done.

So it's written down, but that's, it's a bit like me and my lists. Yeah, mate. It's written down.

Once it's written down, that's it, done. You fucking wait. Oh, God.

So far from being supported, Tanya often felt burdened by the constant presence of professionals in her life, with high numbers of professionals visiting the Clarence home, mostly unannounced and often in groups. Oh, fuck off. Interactions with health visitors, social workers and therapists repeatedly highlighted the enormity of her children's needs, exasperating her sense of inadequacy.

Gary later remarks that Tanya's depression was certainly not assisted by the constant pressure placed on the family by some individuals within the medical profession and social services. Okay. So this is, this bit's hard.

Yeah. All right. Mm-hmm.

In April of 2014, Gary took eight-year-old Taya to South Africa for a holiday. This left Tanya with four-year-old Olivia and three-year-olds Max and Ben. This arrangement was not unusual.

Gary's work commitments and the practicalities of caregiving often meant that the family operated across separate locations for extended periods and that the family were also dedicated to ensuring that Taya got time away. Yeah, exactly. From the complex home environment.

And there are like, I'll come to it later, like there is time where Tanya gets a break too, but not as often. And it is like she decreed that. Yeah.

Which is understandable. Yeah, 100%. And I think that it is like, you know, generally, and I hate to put generalizations on things, but, you know, as a mother, it is still to this day, I think, it kind of like, you do end up feeling like it's almost, well, I'll deal with this bit.

You go and have like, you know, take the other kid and go and deal with that. Like, and Taya does deserve a break from everything that's going on as well. She's a young kid that, you know, had most of her life dictated to by the needs of her younger siblings.

Like, and I'm sure she probably didn't get a huge amount of like, with no judgment meant by this sentence, but I'm sure she probably didn't get as much attention at home. Of course not. When they're dealing with three other unwell children.

If you do, like, if the choice is to give the attention to those that would die without it, or let her have screen time and kind of fucking ignore her for a bit. Exactly. Like, not that there's any reports that they did really like.

No, but you can't spread yourself that thin. Exactly. It's just not feasible.

You know, during this time, friends and neighbors were looking out for Tanya and noted that yes, she did look tired and distant, but it was no more than usual for the woman under such immense strain. There were no immediate indications of the horror that was about to unfold in the Clarence family home. On the evening of the 22nd of April, 2014, Tanya Clarence's mother, unable to reach her daughter throughout the day, became increasingly concerned and contacted a lady called Jade, who was the family's nanny.

Right. Jade, who had been given the day and night off work by Tanya, went to the Clarence residence almost immediately, accompanied by her friend, Daniel Magginan, I can't say his name, but her friend Daniel, who was, oh no, this was a note I made for myself, sorry. Every report says it's slightly different.

I don't know if Daniel is a pastor or if it was Daniel, Jade and a pastor. Fine, okay, fine, fine. So it could be one of those two options.

Yeah, okay, fine. Either way. A pastor was there.

A pastor was there, as was Jade, and Daniel may or may not have been that pastor, but he was also there. He was there, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, fine.

So upon arrival, they let themselves into the house because obviously Jade had a key. And they said it was silent. And then they went upstairs, Jade went upstairs and she found Tanya in her bedroom.

Tanya appeared distressed. She was holding a towel and repeatedly asking them to leave, stating, it's too late, it's too late. There's nothing you can do to help them.

Jade gave Tanya a massive hug, after which Tanya seemed to calm down and lay down and then pull the duvet over herself. Right. The pair noticed blood on Tanya, so made the decision to call 999.

Following instructions from the emergency operator, Daniel opened the bedroom door of Max and Bem. Inside, he discovered the lifeless bodies of the twin boys. Completely overwhelmed, Daniel was unable to open Olivia's bedroom door.

The emergency services arrived shortly after. They discovered all three children were dead. Their bodies were tucked into their respective beds and they were surrounded by their favourite toys.

Tanya was arrested immediately on suspicion of murder. She was taken to St George's Hospital in Tooting when the extent of her own injuries was uncovered. What Jade and Daniel had seen as some blood on her was actually the indication of a really serious and sustained suicide attempt.

Following medical treatment, Tanya was taken into custody. Gary was contacted by the UK authorities. He was told the devastating news over the phone and immediately arranged his return to London.

On the 25th of April 2014, just three days after the tragedy, Tanya Clarence appeared at Wimbledon Magistrates Court. The hearing, which lasted only a few minutes, was focused on the formalities of the charges and the initial procedural steps. Tanya, 42 at the time, stood in the dock, visibly distraught.

She wept openly, speaking only to confirm her name, age and address. Gary was seated in the public gallery. He was overcome with emotion.

As their eyes met across the courtroom, both he and Tanya broke down into tears, a raw and public display of shared grief that underscored the depth of their loss. Gary was supported in court by family and friends who sought to offer comfort during this harrowing time. The Magistrates Court proceedings concluded with Tanya being remanded into custody.

The case was scheduled to be transferred to the Old Bailey with a preliminary hearing set for the 9th of May 2014. A bail application was planned for as soon as possible, although it was stated that it would be unlikely bail would be granted, given the nature of the offences. The bail hearing took place on the 29th of April and the court was informed that the preliminary post-mortem examinations suggested the children had likely died from suffocation, though further tests, including toxicology reports, were pending to confirm the exact cause.

Recognising the exceptional circumstances and Tanya's evident need for immediate medical attention, Judge Brian Barker, the Recorder of London, ordered her remand to a secure hospital under the Mental Health Act. He emphasised the necessity for prompt treatment in a secure setting, stating, there is a combination of circumstances here that makes this an exceptional case and allows this court to make an exceptional course. Tanya Clarence appeared pale and emotional during the proceedings, participating via video link from HMP Bronzefield in Surrey.

She spoke again only to confirm her name while her husband attended the hearing in person, again supported by his friends and family. The court scheduled a plea and case management hearing. So on the 15th of July, 2014, Tanya Clarence appeared at the Old Bailey for the scheduled plea and case management hearing.

However, the proceedings were adjourned to allow for further psychiatric evaluations to assess her mental state at the time of the alleged offences. This postponement was deemed necessary to ensure that all relevant medical evidence would be available to inform subsequent legal decisions. So following those psychiatric evaluations, both the defence and prosecution experts concurred that Tanya Clarence was suffering from a major depressive episode at the time of the offences.

This mental illness substantially impaired her ability to form rational judgements, leading to the tragic events. The assessments indicated that her depression was so severe that it diminished her responsibility for her actions. Tanya Clarence pleaded guilty to the man's daughter of her three children.

Tanya admitted to smothering them with a nappy. The court heard how after killing Max and Ben and before killing Olivia, Tanya wrote a letter to Gary explaining her actions and stating how it had been very difficult to kill the twins, but that killing Olivia would be much harder for her. The letter reportedly goes on to apologise and to reason that Tanya did not feel she could carry on, nor did she feel like she could end her own life and leave Gary to manage the family and their complex life alone.

Consequently, the prosecution accepted her plea of manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility. On the 18th of November 2014, Justice Sweeney sentenced Tanya Clarence to a hospital order under the Mental Health Act, determining that her culpability was significantly diminished due to her major depressive episode. He emphasised that her actions were driven by a profound sense of love and a misguided belief that she was alleviating her children's suffering.

In the psychiatrist's report, Dr Chesterman, for the prosecution, stated, if you had not been suffering from mental illness at the time, you would not have killed your children. The court acknowledged the constant demands placed upon Tanya, leading her to being exhausted and burnt out. Dr Hopeley, responsible for her hospital care, described her as experiencing remarkably high chronic levels of physical and emotional distress.

The judge noted that, your increasing distress when witnessing the various medical interventions that the children required eventually overwhelmed your psychological resources. He went on to acknowledge that in February of 2014, the family's experienced social worker was replaced with a less experienced one, which the prosecution conceded was perhaps ill-conceived. Just a bit.

The judge acknowledged, you and your husband were intelligent people who did not always accept medical recommendations, which the prosecution accept was an entirely rational and tenable viewpoint. However, this approach was noted to have been influenced by Tanya's deteriorating mental health, which added strain to the interactions with professionals. Something of real significance also surfaced during Judge Sweeney's sentencing remarks.

So in the spring of 2013, Tanya and Gary went on a very short holiday to Canada, leaving their children in the care of trusted professionals. So just the two of them. Upon their return, Olivia fell ill and required hospitalisation.

During this period, parents were wrongly accused of improper interference with the equipment that was being used to treat her. What? So the judge highlighted that you had in fact done nothing wrong at all. But there was all sorts like, I'll come to it in a bit, but like they had, it was like basically social services went immediately to legal action.

Yeah. So it was like the intervention was basically like, we're just going to take the children from you. What? They had to fight like the entire time, as well as being exhausted from actually caring for their kids.

It was like they had to fight the entire time. The court acknowledged that Tanya's perception and honestly held belief of the actions of professionals significantly impacted her mental state, even if there was no intent to harm on the part of the professionals. The prosecution accepted that these perceptions were crucial in understanding her emotional and psychological decline.

In closing, Judge Sweeney emphasised, nothing that I can do can adequately reflect the worth of the lives of Olivia, Ben and Max, who were lovely children. So Tanya was sentenced to a hospital order under section 37 of the Mental Health Act. She would remain in care until fully recovered, with no specified release date.

You will not be released until you have recovered from your illness, the judge confirmed. So the sentencing remarks highlighted how a lack of coordination, misjudgments and an overwhelming presence of professionals contributed to Tanya's feelings of helplessness and insecurity. So while the judge emphasised that this was not the forum to judge the actions of the professionals comprehensively, the court did recognise the impact of these systemic failures on Tanya's mental health.

Richard Egan, Tanya's solicitor, issued a statement following the sentencing, which highlighted how Gary Clarence was determined to stand by his wife and support her with what would undoubtedly be a horrific journey towards mental recovery. The statement also acknowledged the alleged failures of professional support system around the Clarence family and stated how Gary would be involved with any formal proceedings undertaken. So following the sentencing, a serious case review was conducted by Kingston Local Safeguarding Children's Board.

The review aimed to understand the systemic challenges and professional shortcomings in supporting the family and safeguarding the children. The review spanned the 42 months from the premature birth of the twins in 2010 to the children's death in 2014, involving a multi-agency network of health, social care and educational professionals. So I've summarised the key findings and themes along with the recommendations.

Some of this might be a bit repetitive, but I thought it was just important to kind of get the outcome. So number one was the complexity of the professional involvement. So with over 60 professionals involved in the Clarence family care with roles spanning healthcare, social work and education.

Despite efforts to streamline involvement, the family's needs required significant input from a wide range of specialists contributing to an overwhelming level of professional intrusion. Efforts to reduce the number of professionals often led practitioners working outside their usual roles. So the review quotes that professionals modified their working practices in order to accommodate the family.

So number two was the parental resistance and systemic challenges. The Clarences prioritised quality of life over longevity for their children, leading to tensions with professionals advocating medical intervention. The parents' aims for their children were laudable in terms of wanting them to have a good quality of life and that this should have been as pain-free as possible.

Disagreements over medical interventions such as gastro... gastro... Oh, God. Gastromy? Gastromy. Yeah, gastromy.

And spinal surgery. I can say that one. Led to delays and frustrations.

Professionals struggled to align the family's preferences with medical recommendations. So quote, mother was clear that no intervention should be performed. Professionals felt she was making this decision without acknowledging the risks that the child would suffer more if she did not have the surgery.

So there's lots of argument kind of for both sides in this where it's some of it... Sorry. It's all right. I don't know what I've done there.

Threw my mic in the sea. I mean, we'll talk about it. I kind of... I figured we'd get the bulk of what I've written out of the way and then we'll talk about it.

But I will just say like there did seem a slight mismatch between medical professionals wanting to do really invasive procedures because it was the recommended course of action. The parent's family wanting the kids to just be as pain-free and as happy as possible. And then like this kind of grey area in the third where it's like, but some of these intensive treatments or invasive treatments will benefit their quality of life.

It will improve their quality of life. Not just longevity. Like there was, yeah, like there was some of it that potentially was miscommunicated to the family.

So what they thought of like, you're just doing that because a consultant that's never met the kids has said it's the best course of action. We've not actually taken into account like the recovery time or, you know, and all of that stuff that we might not have that long with these kids anyway. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, we'll talk. If I launch into it now, we won't get to the end of it. So we'll wait.

Number three is missed opportunities for safeguarding. This one. Although professionals recognised potential risks, including medical neglect and emotional harm, child protection procedures were not initiated properly.

Quote, the lack of moving into child protection procedures, despite all the concerns, gave mixed messages to the parents and to the professionals. Instead, the focus shifted prematurely to legal intervention without using child protection processes, leaving concerns unaddressed and relationships strained. Quote, legal intervention should have been the last stage.

Proceeded by the use of strategy discussion, child protection inquiries, child protection conferences, and ultimately, if there are no other option, legal proceedings. No, I'll hold it. No, like I was going to say, like child protection to what? It's such a subjective thing.

Are we talking about it in the fact that like the fact that parents who at this point in time are the legal guardians of their children, their children are under 18, therefore their parents have the legal responsibility for their care, right? So they're not refusing. The kids don't have asthma and the parents are refusing an inhaler. No.

The kids have incredibly complex needs and OK, admittedly, not all of the procedures that the doctors and the health care professionals and social services, whoever, any of those agencies are suggesting they might not all have been just because that will help them live longer. But there were quite a few that were. And as a parent, I can't imagine the decisions and the turmoil that you must be in to have to make those decisions for your children and to have to go.

It will lengthen their life, but at what cost? But but are we saying that the child, the protection, the child protection issues are because the parents have said that they don't agree with the medical profession? So I think it's complicated. I think it's. Yes, basically, I think from what I've read, it's.

That there was. There was concern that the parents were saying no to procedures that they. Thought aligned with their belief of not valuing quality over quantity.

Right. But not that wasn't necessarily true. So but because of the turmoil, because of the strange relationship between the professionals and the family, because of historical.

You've tried to make us have this procedure and all it would have done would add, you know, was nothing or like or whatever. Like. Sorry.

I think it was a bit of a case of maybe the there being a risk the family weren't seeing the wood for the trees. Fine, OK. And therefore, if professionals seriously had concern that those kids were being medically neglected.

Yeah. Then there should have been what they said. There should have been intervention in other methods that should have included discussions, included inquiries, including conferences and and attempts to explain more than.

Like more than that, more than what was done, basically, it's kind of like assuming that the parents know, as you say, like if they've if they've had experience before where they've been, these procedures that actually were could have been beneficial. Yeah, but if it was if they've had procedures where it's like not that they were unnecessary because they obviously were, but like that are purely to well, this will let them live for another year. But actually, they're that's another year where we can't manage that particular element of their care.

We can't manage that pain because that's always going to be there because of their condition. So but we can make them live another year longer. Like that's if you've had that already, if you're then not having it explained to you in a way that one is understandable.

And I, you know, people can come for me when I say this. But having been in situations with particularly with paediatric care, there's a lot of time I came across doctors who when, you know, my oldest was premature, not by anywhere near as much as the twins were. But, you know, she was born at 34 weeks.

And and there were things that the doctors would say to me that they it's almost like they assumed I knew what they were talking about. Right. And I had absolutely no idea.

I knew what some of those words meant on their own, but didn't know what they meant in that sentence. Like what are you talking about? Like, so there's a lot of I think that sometimes the medical profession assumes that the lay person knows more than they actually do. So potentially like, no, dumb it down for me.

Talk to me like I'm three, because it's if it's especially when it's something this important. I don't it felt I don't know from reading what all of this is like. It just felt all so chaotic.

Yeah. And not. Yeah, but.

I'll carry on with the findings from the review. Yeah, sorry. No, don't apologize.

So number four was mother's mental health. So Tanya Clarence exhibited some. Surprise.

Sorry, not what I meant to say. Tanya Clarence exhibited signs of depression and emotional distress, which professionals identified but did not act upon decisively. Quote, throughout the period under review, there was professional concern about mother's presentation, recognizing possible depression due to her crying, flatness and avoiding an avoidance of eye contact.

Offers of mental health support were repeatedly declined and professionals failed to escalate these concerns effectively. Quote, there was nothing in the mother's behavior that suggested she would need to be detained in a hospital in the interests of her own health or safety or with a view to the protection of others. According to the notes.

OK, and yeah, OK. Number five, again, is a lack of consensus amongst professionals. So disparate views among health care and social care professionals hindered effective decision making.

Quote, the search for consensus amongst professionals acted as a major obstacle in initiating child protection procedures. So social workers relied heavily on medical consensus, which was often absent, resulting in delays addressing critical safeguarding concerns. Because let's not beat around the bush here, it'll be funny, like they should have been taken from her.

Yeah, yeah. Social services should have taken those children away from that woman. She wasn't well.

No. Intervention for that woman should have been put in place. She should have been looked after until such time that she was then fully robust and able to care for her children again.

Like I know that they're like there's going to be and I had it a skew on this case that was like. The they should have all just left her alone and the pressure wouldn't have been as much and she might have coped, but she wasn't coping. No matter what way you look at it, she wasn't coping.

And yeah, the interventions didn't help. I now think that's because they didn't go far enough and it was very like. You're meant to be the expert here.

I'm the expert because I'm the mother, but I'm also fucking exhausted. Yeah. Emotionally in turmoil all the time.

Yeah, right. And also, I'm not going to have a. What is it? Legacy? No, no, no, no, no. A thing of you.

I'm not going to have a. When you can be completely like unbiased. There's a word for it. Yeah.

But I'm not. She's not going to have an unbiased view on their care issues. She's not going to have a critical.

She's not going to be critically thinking. She's going to be emotionally thinking. Of course she is.

Of course she is. I'm like and that's not. That's not wrong.

No, but it doesn't mean. Yeah, I don't know. I'm so frustrated.

I don't know if you can tell. It's yeah. Again, I'll save it to the end.

Yeah, so the recommendations that fell out of the safeguarding review or the serious case review, sorry. Well, one improved coordination. So clearly defined roles and responsibilities for lead professionals to avoid confusions and gaps in care.

OK, safeguarding awareness. So better use of child protection processes, including strategy discussions and section 47 inquiries. Parental engagement, early and structured conversations with parents to understand their cultural background and attitude and attitudes towards care.

Support for complex cases, so access to specialist panels for professionals handling complex multi-agency cases and flexibility and care packages. So options for families to directly employ and manage care staff tailored to their unique needs. The SCR concluded that while the tragic events were unexpected, there were systemic failings in managing the complexity of the case.

The report emphasised the importance of clear communication, early intervention and a balanced approach to safeguarding vulnerable children while supporting their families. So as of March 2015, Tanya Clarence began a phased release from the secure psychiatric hospital where she was detained, allowing her to spend weekends at home. This gradual reintegration was part of her rehabilitation process.

However, there is no publicly available information beyond that date regarding her current status. Given the sensitive nature of the case and the emphasis on privacy, it is possible that subsequent developments have not been and will not be disclosed to the public. I also don't think, I don't know what, it's not in the interest of the public to know about how she's doing now.

Like it's not any of our fucking business. Yeah. I'm feeling all the feels.

It's intense, right? When you messaged me about this case and you've done it a few times where you've just kind of gone like this case, man. There was one where you messaged me and you went, she just broke. She just broke.

She just broke. And it's that thing of like, imagine that she's at the best of times. Like imagine your kids are able-bodied and healthy.

And for whatever reason, multiple times a week, care, like health and social care staff just turn up at your door. Unannounced, in groups. No.

And you never know when it's going to happen. No. That's on top of the scheduled care staff that are coming to treat your children.

That's on top of the appointments that you have to keep for their medical care. That's on top of the support staff or like the nanny or like the support that you get. Yeah.

So the house was inundated and their lives were inundated by intrusion. Yeah. Like there was no point where it was like calm.

No. There was no peace. And I can imagine as well, like this is all started from the moment those twins were born.

Because that anxiety, that stress, that complete and utter feeling of helplessness. And at the same time, your daughter's in another country being diagnosed with a really serious condition. Fuck me.

You're four months in a Portuguese neonatal unit. No. No.

It's just. Just no. You know, like I know that you've got experience.

Those weeks of, of, oh God, I really had to stop my brain saying her name then. It just shut down. I can't say her name.

I can't say anything. But those weeks of baby being in. Yeah.

In the hospital. Yeah. And you having to go back and forth.

But then imagine that in a foreign country where you don't speak the language. No, I can't. I can't.

And it being four months. I refuse. Point blank refuse.

It's just so intense. It is. It's.

And look, I think that this was always, we always knew this was going to be a difficult one. And for those of you who have managed to make it this far, like well done. We salute you.

And for those of you who haven't and probably won't hear me saying this, but there is absolutely no judgment either, because this is so fucking hard when it's hard enough when you're talking about children and they were babies, the three and four. But it's also incredibly hard to. Think about the.

I think what she, what she did was, was wrong. Of course, it was fundamentally wrong, but. I have empathy.

I have so much empathy. I have so much empathy for her. It's.

Lest we forget. She's going to live with this for the rest of her life. Of course you will.

But it's very reminiscent. It's not the same in any way, shape or form, but it's reminiscent of the Andrea Yates case in the States where she had postpartum psychosis. And she drowned.

Yeah, her children and her husband again stood by her. They are now divorced. But he's still very supportive of her and still very much like, you know, it's something that she will never, ever forgive herself for.

Of course. She, the punishment that she will give herself for what she did is enough. I think it's just with any child, with any sort of complex need, with any child, with any sort of need.

Children are hard fucking work. I've been on this podcast numerous times talking about how my children are exhausting, how they are, you know, we've had tantrums and all the rest of it, you know, and they have, it's felt intense and it's felt hardcore because it is. And I have, I'm very, very lucky and very privileged to be able to say that I have two healthy, quote unquote, normal children.

And I, there are days where I could just walk out the door and leave. And that is someone who is, you know, all right, we won't go into my mental health history, but as someone who is, you know, luckily, again, privileged to have access to medication that means that my anxiety doesn't go haywire. It's controllable.

I've got a good job. I've got money. I've got a roof over my, we've got all the positive things.

You have a village around you. I have a massive fucking village around me. I'm incredibly lucky.

But there are still days where I could leave. Just walk out the door and not look back. like being a human is hard enough, right? And this is like one of the reasons I, I don't, I can't see me, it's difficult to, like, I don't want to get into a big conversation about the, whether or not having children is the right, no, no, no, no, no.

I'm not going to have children. Never say never. Maybe if I was very rich, I would, I would freely adopt or foster.

I can imagine me doing that. If I had the financial stability to foster. Yeah.

That would be basically what I would do. Yeah. Anyway, it's hard enough being a human, let alone a human that then is looking after other humans.

Yeah. Let alone, for other humans and a husband, like I'm trying to make, like, and all of those other things, like maintaining friendships, maintaining, you know, a relationship with your parents or a relationship with your husband, with your friends, like, all of the stuff, all of the stuff that makes being a human difficult in the first place. Yeah.

Well, not difficult, but like, you know what I mean? Yeah. Then adding in looking after children, which seems fucking ridiculous to me. That looks really tough.

Yeah. It has its moments. All right.

And you're all around me that have kids, make it look easier than others. I'll say that. And you're all wonderful parents.

But like, fuck me, that looks tough. Let alone, then there being four of them. Yeah.

Then three of them being very fucking ill. Yeah, exactly. Like what? Like, yeah, you would, it's too much for one person to bear.

And I say this knowing full well that there are plenty of incredible parents out there who are, who are, who are looking after children who have these needs and they're doing it absolutely, they're fucking smashing it. But I think you, it's not, it's not fucking easy. It's not.

And the concept that she was, as you say, then in, and then, as you say, the idea that she was under constant scrutiny and you would, even if it wasn't necessarily an intended scrutiny, even if it wasn't a, even if in those professionals' minds they were there to help. And I don't doubt that they were. No, but I think that it's like you've got to try and think about it from the perspective of that other person where it is, as you say, the house is never fucking quiet.

There are people there all the time. There are people there when you know there are going to be people there and then there are people who just fucking turn up. And then, like, it's, it's like bloody Piccadilly Circus with the amount of people coming in.

If then the things that they're saying to you are contradicting one another by accident, but they are contradictory, you are already like swimming in stuff that you never thought you'd need to think about and you'd never thought that you needed to understand. And then you're being given more and more information that is... Unless we say like, they're not, like, just because they've got children with this illness, doesn't mean that they've mastered all of the learning behind what this illness means and what it entails for their children. They're having to be incredibly intuitive to their children because that's the only source of information, well, it's the only true source of information they have, right, is how their kids are responding.

And, you know, we all respond differently to a fucking cold, let alone Yeah, exactly. a degenerative, life-limiting disease. Yeah.

Plus, processing, and, I think what really hit me is is the length of time the serious case review took on. It's like, okay, we'll go from the birth of the twins to the event and just after. It's 42 months.

Like, it's not... Like, what? Like, there's no time. There's no time at all. All of that in that space.

Fuck. You know, you can't do anything. Like, you wouldn't become an expert of anything in that time.

No, you can't. And especially when you've then got, and you've got another child who's healthy. So you've got to try and balance that.

it's... Oh my god. No. No.

That poor family. I know. And like, it throws up so many questions and it throws up so many sort of like, you know, we can all sit here and have our own opinions and our own judgment and all the rest of it.

And we can think about what we, what we would like to think that we would be like if we were in that situation, right? No one, no one knows until they're in it. And I think it's unfair for us to kind of pass judgment on an experience that we haven't personally lived. I think it's very easy to say, oh, well, I would act differently.

I wouldn't have done it. You don't know. I'm sure that Tanya would have said that.

Of course she would have. But the other thing is there is a part of like, so that's right. No, I don't think that like anyone really determined to make a lot of noise in the background of this episode.

I love it. It's good. Give Will something to work on.

But no, I think that, you know, I don't even think you have to be a parent to understand this. You just have to have had a close relationship with a child, right? It's. The love that you feel for that baby, that child, that person, right? I'm not saying for everyone because everyone's journey is different, but for the majority of mothers that I've spoken to.

The love you feel for that baby starts the moment that there is a small pink line on a stick that you've peed on, right? For most. If that baby is born, and if you think of it, in the case of Olivia, they had two years where they didn't think that anything was wrong. There was nothing.

There were no signs. You've got two years. You've got one healthy child already.

So there's no indicators that anything could be wrong. You have fallen in love with that kid. That kid has stolen your heart.

You've had a series of miscarriages. Yeah, exactly. That child has stolen your heart a million times over.

And then to have had twins that again, at the time of their conception and the time of their birth, you didn't know about the illness that Olivia had. I mean, it would have been traumatic enough just that they were born at 26 weeks. Like that is obstacle enough for people, parents and children to overcome.

Yeah, exactly. And it's like, again, with... Anyway, I'll come back to that. I'm trying to rearrange my thoughts.

But you... There is no way that a parent who has been through all of that just decides, fuck it. And listen, I didn't want to... Look, I think we all know me and you well enough by now to know that we want to avoid sensationalism. And there's other details out there about the actual crime that was committed because like, that's what it was.

That screamed to me that it was done with so much love. The way that she genuinely believed that she was doing the best thing for her children. And she did it with care.

And with... She was gentle. like she arranged them and she gave them their favorite things. And it was, you know, like they weren't... She didn't... She did snap.

She did break. But it wasn't like... You know, she didn't shoot them. Like, do you know what I mean? It wasn't violent.

At no point was it violent. It came from a yes, a pointing in the wrong direction, a completely wrong direction, but a maternal instinct that took over. And that's the thing.

It's the same with the... With like a load of... Whenever you get cases, I'm not saying that all women who kill their children do it out of love. Some of the cunts, they definitely don't. But if you look at like cases of like postpartum and like whether that is psychosis or not.

But again, it is that it's that mental health crisis that that woman finds herself in. And they genuinely do think there is no other option. This is the best thing for them.

This is what is going to save them. This is what is going to make sure that they are not hurting, that they are not in pain, that there is not... And that's it. And she's had years of looking at her children.

And by all reports, they were in significant pain for a lot of the time. No. No.

It's just so fucking sad. It's so sad. And I think that it's like... I'm going to say something that might be seen to be really controversial now and I might get Will to cut it out.

But we're having conversations in this country at the moment about like assisted dying and about when... And I understand the differences, right? I understand that the concept for assisted dying is that if you are, you know, unwell, terminal with an illness or, you know, something of that ilk and you are in your... your compass meant is enough to be able to make the decision. Well, you have to be able to give consent. Exactly.

And I know that with children, they can never, ever. That is not possible. And actually, sorry, I'm just interrupting because I didn't put it in, but it is... The full sentencing remarks are there.

Yeah. And the judge, I can't remember if it was in sentencing or if in the plea trial, but they basically said like in other walks of life, you might have tried to call it a mercy killing, but you do acknowledge that the children could not ask to be... Like they did not ask to have their lives ended. It can't... It's not assisted dying.

It's not a merciful killing. There was no mercy. And she had to acknowledge that and accept it from the court.

Right. OK. Just to be... So that it was in legal terms, it was incredibly black and white.

It is not. Yeah. And I agree with that.

And it is, you know... Because it wasn't. Because it wasn't. And because they can't consent because they're far too young.

And because they don't know what they're saying and all of that. But you do kind of... And I know that it's... It's just your perception of their life. And I know that if you look at it in a really cynical perspective, it could be that, oh, well, it was really difficult on me and I was having to look after them and I'd lost myself because I was having to be their caregiver.

And yeah, I suppose you could look at it like that. And there may well be cases where women have done... Because the child hasn't fit in with their lifestyle. But I would hazard a guess that those cases are so few and far between that they're kind of negligible.

I just... It's so... It's such a fucking minefield because you've got... Like, even now, and I know I'm the queen of trying to justify people doing bad things and trying to find the reasons behind why that bad thing might have happened. But with this one, it is genuinely... Like, my brain is whirring. Well, this one, we know why.

Yeah. It doesn't... But nothing will ever justify it. No, but it's that whole kind of... But we know why it happened.

We know why it happened. And we kind of... And as I say, the empathy. And I think that's what... I just want to hug her.

Yeah. But I think that that's what I'm struggling with because I feel empathy towards her. I feel... Not understanding because I don't understand it because I've, thankfully, never needed to.

But there is a level of... I see you. And understanding is the only word I can think of. But it's that kind of thing.

But then your brain just flip-flops because it's like these are innocent kids. And... Oh, it's just... It's just horrible. It's just horrible.

And you could go on, like, having to think about this in order to write it for a few weeks now. I don't think there's been a day that, like, since I started properly researching, I don't think there's been a day that's gone past where I've not kind of like been in the bath thinking, Jesus, like... And there's just another element of sad that comes from it every single time. Like, imagine growing up knowing your mum killed your siblings.

Imagine carrying on with your life knowing your wife adored your children but also murdered three of them. Imagine being Gary and having to witness her interact with her older child now. And hopefully, albeit, like, she's healthy and, you know, and all of that.

Just imagine being in any of those scenarios. Like, they're... Is there always going to be a question mark? This is it now, of course. And rightly so, because she did it.

Yeah. And it's not a case of, oh, she's fixed and it's fine and it's all done and dusted. This will be forever now because once... I don't know, like, this is a bigger conversation, but like, once you've snapped in such a dramatic and catastrophic way, could you ever be trusted not to do it again? Yeah.

And it's not saying that she, like, there's no intention. Like, I'm not saying that there was no intention in the first place. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I wouldn't. You wouldn't let a fucking baby sit, would you? No. No.

And that's more for her, like, for her sake as well. Yeah. The trauma of it always just... It ripples out so far and wide.

Yeah. I do just find it bad, though, that they're still like... You've got to forgive your daughter-in-law for killing your grandchildren. Like, what the fuck? The more you think about it, the more people are like... Yeah.

And even, like I said at the beginning, I'm not... There were fuck-ups by the institutions around them. Yeah. Like, that is... That is fact.

But imagine being that really experienced social worker that was taken off the case. Yeah. God, no.

But that's another question that, like, comes to mind, right? Is that... And again, this is... I'm going to ask all the really easy questions that we can deal with in about five minutes. I'm obviously going to know all the answers. But do you know what I mean? It is that kind of thing of, like, well, where... And we've seen this in what I'm about to say in, like, recent cases as well.

But on the flip side, so when is it that, like, doctors will say one thing, parents want and believe another thing, and trying to make that determination about who has the right or the authority over that is fucking mad. So if we think about it, in this case, we've got, you know, for all the reasons that we said earlier, we've got parents who don't necessarily think that the interventions that the medical professionals are suggesting are useful, worth it, whatever. We know that some of them probably would have been.

We know that others may not have been. Fine. If you then think about the case, I can't remember his name, but there was a little boy who was in... His parents wanted to keep him on life support.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was it Charlie? Or Ryan.

I had Ryan come into my head, but I don't know why. I'll find it out. Yeah, we'll put it in.

But there was a little boy and he was in a hospital and he was on life support and his parents wanted to keep him on life support. And it went to the... I think it was Great Ormond Street, but again, I could be wrong and I'll fact check this. But like, they then said that there was nothing that they could do for the child and that actually keeping him on life support was cruel and unusual because like... And then it goes to the high court and then the high court decides what's... And you just kind of think like, so either way, either way.

So we've got one case where parents are going, no, no medical intervention, don't resuscitate. I want them to have a good quality of life. And if that's short, it's short, but at least they're happy and health... Not healthy, happy and not as in pain.

And as good a quality as it can be. You've got that on one side. And we've got doctors and professionals, not just calling out doctors.

We've got medical professionals of all sorts. And care professionals. Yeah, we've got them belaboring the fact that actually this is a child protection issue and the parents should be being investigated or looked at because of the fact that they don't want to extend their child's life.

But then we've got parents who want to keep their child alive. And they're not right either. But they're not right either.

So I think this is where the recommendations come in about the... If they had aligned, if they'd been... It just feels like... I'm going to use my language in this, right? It feels like there wasn't an adult in the room that sat down and went, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Let's fucking look at this objectively. That's the word I was looking for earlier.

Let's all sit down. Let's all bring our points of view to the table. And let's find out where one of consensus is.

But also let's find out where a compromise is. Is it that actually Tanya and Gary, we completely understand and support your point of view. And that will be the spirit in which we discuss everything will be about quality, not quantity now.

But this intervention, while it might be invasive, is going to mean X, Y, and Z for the kids. And that is better. Therefore, it just felt like everyone was going, but this, but that, but this, but that, but no, but yeah, but we do this, we do that.

But don't do this. They're not doing that. She said this, he won't do that.

This doctor came in here, the social services. And it was everywhere all the time. And it like, just how, how, who's making sense of all of this? Who's there going? Who's being logical and reasonable in all of this? And you might think as the individual, whether you're the social worker or the doctor or the consultant or the parent, you might think you are being that person, but you can't be objective when you're that close to it.

So that's why they have like, they do do it in other scenarios where there are multidisciplinary meetings. Like I know someone very close to me is in a profession that deals with mental health. And I know that there's multi-agency meetings about individual cases.

Like it's something like they go to the CAF, but it's like case something serious evaluation. Also, I don't know. It's an acronym for something, not an acronym, an initialization for something where there is then a chair.

And the chair is the person that, and they don't necessarily have to be the most qualified doctor in the room or the most like, or whatever. But it's just an independent, an unbiased individual that can sit there and go, okay. Yeah.

I mean, it's like they had a multidisciplinary thing. So again, when I was pregnant with my first one, they found that I had lots of stuff with her. And this is where like the speaking a different language came in, because there were lots of uses of words that I understood in and of themselves, but then used in that sentence actually may have assumed something was worse than it was or, you know, lots of stuff.

Basically I had, sorry, too much information, but I had a large cyst on one of my ovaries when my big one, when I was pregnant with my first one. And it was at the time they couldn't tell because I've had no history of polycystic. I've had no history of anything really.

It was alarming because it was over 10 centimetres in diameter. So it was huge. And there was a concern that it could be some form of cancerous thing.

Luckily wasn't is just a normal benign cyst. And it went away as soon as she was born. So all great and dandy, but I was being looked after by there was an oncology team.

There was a specialist midwife. Then there was the midwifery team that were dealing with my mental health and my anxiety because I'm having to speak to somebody in oncology. And then like, then that's going to these specialist review boards.

And I would get sort of like feedback from these review boards. And it was all, you know, again, as I say, very privileged. I'm here, I'm happy, I'm healthy.

It's all good. But it is like that happens. So where was it in this case? And the fact that it was missing is like, well, whose job was it to make sure that that wasn't missing? It just feels like there was a massive gap and they just fell through it.

I will say when you were going through this, I don't know if I've ever told you this, like I'd be like, I'd speak to my mom or to like friends or whatever and be like, it's not that you're not my friend, but you know what I mean? Yeah. Other people would be like, and I'd be like, if anything happens to her, and then I'd be with you. I'd be really dismissive.

Oh, don't be silly. I'd just be like normal, like happy, happy. Because I thought you can't have another person in your life being worried.

And then I'd like, I'd stop like, I'd put the phone down to you or come home from seeing you and or you'd leave from seeing me. And I'd be like, Oh, I love you. You're very lovely.

Oh, yeah. Like you'd call, like you'd leave for five, like you'd have left the house and have gone for five minutes. And I'd have been like to mom.

And then you'd ring and be like, Hi, babe. Yeah, no, no, your bag's not here. You must have left it in the car.

Yeah, no, great. Love you, bye. I love you so much.

But yeah, it is. It is. And all of this stuff is so fucking, as I say, it's a minefield and it's devastating and it's horrible.

And you did an insanely good job. I hope so. No, you've done an incredibly good job of relaying all that.

I mean, I don't know if you know the answer to this question, and it could be very well because of what we're saying at the end that like, because of like what's happened since is not particularly well documented. But do we know like what happened? Is Gary still with her? Yeah, as far as we know, and it was like kind of from 2015. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

They're together. He was supporting her. Yeah, yeah.

He was very receptive to starting the reintroduction back into the family home. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And spending time with Taya.

Yeah. So by all accounts. Yeah, from what we know, it's yeah.

I mean, he was absolutely steadfast in standing behind her and supporting her through that. Yeah. Which, yeah, I mean, good man.

Yeah, I mean, fucking hell. Like, yeah. Oh, wow, mate.

That was intense. But as I say, very well done. And thank you for your time and the brainpower that it must have taken.

I'm sure I'm sure I've missed things. I'm sure like sure there'll be gaps or like if I've got something wrong, I've got it wrong. I can only, I'm only one woman.

Well, I mean, as I say, I couldn't do it because the moment I saw the ages, I was like, no, no, no, no, you have that one. Thanks. So there's no way I could have done it.

Can we do a case next? We're like, no one dies. Yeah. Really? Yeah, we can.

My next episode is no one will die. We're going to give you a bit of respite. Yes.

But yeah, sorry, mom. That does mean that you'll probably find it boring. But yeah, that'll be next week.

So I think all that's left to say off this one is the nice things. We've got a website. You can go and see, have a look at where, like what the next cases are and have a bit more of a deep dive into things.

We've got the Instagram where we're over there doing some stupid floating head stuff and other bits. We've got an email. Hannah has a new year's resolution that she's going to reply to them.

So drop her an email. We've got the lovely Facebook group by the lovely Lou and TikTok. Don't worry about it.

Um, so yeah, that's that's it. Patreon still is being sorted. Oh, do you know what? I was sorry.

Just before we go. Yeah. Um, I do have to say that in my amazingness at all things that Instagram marketing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I posted your like a couple of weeks back. It was a birthday.

And I posted your birthday message. Yeah. To the Instagram.

At no point did I make reference to the fact that in the photo you're in a model of a gas chamber. Yeah. We had that was when we went to the godawful serial exhibition.

But I just love that at no point did I make reference to it. No, no, no. There's me singing a gas chamber.

We did have someone comment. We see you. Hello.

It wasn't me. Honestly, it made me die. Did Rach write this? Say happy birthday to myself.

Yeah. No, actually Hannah was being very kind. I have access to the Instagram.

You don't know it's not me. Sometimes it might be. Sometimes it may be.

You can tell when the camera images just aren't quite as good. It was probably me. No, do you know what I love? I think it's like you can tell because you're really quick at like responding to people when they comment or they send us messages.

Yeah. The amount of times I've had notification of someone sent something and then I've gone to reply to you've already replied. I'm like, oh, okay, cool.

I tell you, that's really indicative of our personalities because I feel the same about whenever I see that there's an ad opportunity and I'm like, oh, I'll click on that. Oh, Rachel's already done it because she loved money. Well, we made a grand 42 cents.

Tell you big monies, big, big monies. Ballers. Anyway, let's go.

Yeah, we'll go. But thank you so much for listening. I'm going to try that again.

End it as we started. Yeah, exactly. Thanks so much for listening.

Lovely, Trevor's guys. We love you very much. And yeah, next week, there'll be a little bit less sadness.

No death, no death, no death. Yeah. All right, then.

All right. Love you. Bye.

Love you. Goodbye.