South London's Summer of Fear: The Stockwell Strangler

Episode 7! South London, summer of '86. It's boiling, windows are open, and an unseen predator is creeping inside. One by one, elderly residents are found dead in their beds, strangled, their homes disturbed but not ransacked. The press dub him 'The Stockwell Strangler', and fear grips the city. 

Who was Kenneth Erskine, and what drove him to prey on the most vulnerable? Han takes us through a case that left South London in shock. 

Plus, an important public service announcement - pubs with "arms" in the name do not, in fact, have anything to do with actual limbs. You're welcome! 

Sources include:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Erskine

https://www.crimeandinvestigation.co.uk/articles/stockwell-strangler-how-kenneth-erskine-terrorised-londons-pensioners

https://murderpedia.org/male.E/e/erskine-kenneth.htm

https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/stockwell-strangler-wins-murder-appeal-6759330.html 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8149050.stm

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/10814441/Tea-with-the-Stockwell-Strangler.html

https://www.thetruecrimedatabase.com/case_file/the-stockwell-strangler/

https://thetruecrimeenthusiast.co.uk/the-stockwell-strangler-part-2 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/stockwell-strangler-goes-home-1607484

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/articles/Kenneth_Erskine

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/jul/14/stockwell-strangler-wins-appeal-murder-convictions 

https://www.guyhadleigh.com/blog/the-stockwell-strangler 

https://www.itv.com/watch/new-scotland-yard-files/10a3268/10a3268a0006 

https://shows.acast.com/theywalkamongus/episodes/the-stockwell-strangler-kenneth-erskine-part-2 

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Produced and hosted by Hannah Williams & Rachel Baines
Mixed & edited by Purple Waves Sound (A.K.A Will)

Transcript

Stockwell Strangler

Hello, I'm Rachel. I'm Hannah. And this is the Sinister South podcast, a podcast all about the criminal, the curious and the corrupt in South London.

Thank you for the little line. I just mouthed the word corrupt at her. I wasn't trying to get in on the intro.

I'm actually just part of London duty now. It's just obsession. Well, to be fair, I cannot spell definitely.

How are you? I'm always defiantly doing things. Don't worry. How are you? Oh, mate, I am not gonna bore everyone.

I've already bored you. Yeah, work so fucking intense that I left here. No, I didn't.

I came here. I left my house and I got here and it wasn't until I walked into your front door that I realised I had my slippers on. Hadn't even got, like, hadn't even put shoes on.

I don't know what day of the week it is. Oh, mate. I barely know my left from right.

So any of that shit. I don't know. Yeah, just very all consuming.

But I can't complain because I'm working with a lovely team. And they're very supportive. And everyone around me is very like, you can do it.

We're getting there. And what can we do to help and hire someone that knows what they're doing? You have been asked to do a hell of a lot. I'm not gonna lie.

It's just it's just so out of my wheelhouse. That's the thing. But it's fun.

I'm learning. I'm gonna have a new skill set at the end of it. Exactly.

And the chance to up my day rate. Which needs to happen immediately. Yeah.

Oh, mate. I'm sorry. Yeah, it's just left me a bit like, Hi, I'm Hannah.

Who are you? Well, to be fair, I get that feeling. I I've been doing the same. I've had to work over the weekend this week, which is never fun.

I always try and make sure that like, I don't work at the weekends. Not this time. I had the small one come out and demand immediately as she walked through the door.

Daddy's taken sister to a birthday party. So I have to come out here. So I need you to put the bed out.

And she means the sofa bed that's in my time currently sat on. Yeah. So I had to then tidy absolutely everything away so that she could have the bed out and just sit there like the Queen of Sheba watching the Smurfs.

Good for her. I mean, I'm sitting here realising that I've not asked you to do that. No, well, I should I can do it.

It just you have to just you have to choose between the the bed and the desk. The two of them cannot be out at the same time. To be fair, I just work like the Queen of Sheba like that.

I think it's not a visual medium. I was tippy tapping on a pretend laptop. Anyway, we could get one of those hospital beds that no, not beds, hospital tables that go over the bed.

Yeah, we could always then we could top and tail in the bed. And then we'll definitely when they see this end. Because that's got the end.

Yeah. Oh, I lean in. No, I am leaning.

I'm not using my own back muscles. To keep myself propped up. But yeah.

Oh, dear. But no, good for her. Get the bed out.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It also tests us on whether we can remember how to set the fucking equipment up. Honestly, I've just I just don't I just let you do it now. I'm just like, nope, just put my hands in the air.

Don't touch me. It's because you're very like, very rushed. And I do that one and pull it.

And I'm like, wait a second. It's I personify I think I am like, I identify very closely with a daddy long legs in that and it's that Ricky Gervais thing, right? It's the most it's the deadliest predator if it had teeth to deliver the venom. So it just bumbles about a bit and just sort of doesn't really know what it's doing.

That is me. That is 100% me. So when you then give me cables, what animal would I be? Well, you want an equally shit animal or amazing? I don't mind.

No, we're doing the equally shit ones. I don't know. I just know that like, I don't know.

I've never thought has just reminded me that I've got bone to pick with you. Why? What? So in my I've seen this trend on Instagram. Let's do it for each other.

We did the nine squares of how do you see me? Yeah. Thing. Trevor's will see it on Instagram.

I think it's very clear which one is which. The only food you think I like is not coriander. No, do you know what? That was the one that I got so stuck on.

I sat there for ages. I was talking to Will. I was like, I can't what she doesn't eat anymore.

I've seen all I know to have three boiled eggs. I had a mini egg that I found in my pocket a minute ago. You did to be fair.

Why should have done is replaced it with a picture of a gusto box and then just put only at Rachel's house. Yes. No, it's so that is so weird.

I don't know how much I'm going to talk about it. I'm not going to go into any detail. But I am on a journey of body change.

And I'm not promoting weight loss. I got, you know, trying to be in a smaller body for any other reason than I'd put on weight and I wasn't comfortable in my own skin. Yeah.

Anyway, caveat over. But it's got to a stage it's been like, what, three, four months now. And my hunger levels are completely changed.

The way I think about food is completely changed. Insinuate from that what you will. So I just I'm not hungry.

I'm never I have to at the moment I'm force forcefully reminding myself I've got to eat to fuel my body. You know? And yeah, I can go my mom's my grand's I've been. I've been to restaurants and been like, Oh, that looks nice, but not been like, Oh my god, I'm starving.

I walk in this fucking front door. There is something about the air in your house. I'm like, it is that child not gonna finish that? Is that? Has that? Has that cat finished? Is that what? What? What? What are you doing? Well, can I have it? Do you know what we are just a family of feeders? It's not even like I'm walking in you off.

Not that you wouldn't offer you would. But like, it's not even like you do. I'm just sat there like, but where's mine? The reason why the reason why I don't offer is because you offer guests things like you're not a guest.

You're just coming to help yourself. Like you've you've told me multiple times that you've come around to feed my cats when we're not here. So you know, it's fine.

You don't need to be offered you just packet of food for them. A little packet of food for me. I'm glad I could help.

I need this sustenance to battle with your fucking front door. Yeah, it's true. It's true.

I was gonna try and find some caveat. But anyway, but other than that, you okay? Other than work? How's everything else? You went to see Papa Roach? I did go see Papa Roach. It was another one of Richard's magic.

Oh, come on, then let's just do this. I've seen things which was, which was a Yeah, it was really fun. I actually got a little bit further in.

Oh, I would normally and I kind of freaked out for like two minutes and then was fine. Nice. Yeah, even Richard said well done to me.

So high praise indeed. There we go. No, it was good.

It was a lot of, you know, my age, our age people singing along to the three songs I know, and then going, I don't mind this one to the other ones that they weren't so familiar with. A lot of surreptitious vaping. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And unnecessarily enthusiastic teens at the front. Oh, okay. That kind of thing.

Nice. In true me style, I did take some videos, especially for you. In which everyone and there's about six.

I point the camera at the stage, start filming, and then say very loudly over the crowd and the music to Richard. This is for Rachel! Every video. It's for Rach! Okay.

And the quality of these videos. Oh, man, you're gonna be bowled over. I feel like we should.

Put one of them off as a reel. I love that you think of me. So it's just it's lovely.

Thank you. Oh, but yeah, no, it was really good fun. And I had a lovely weekend.

Actually, I can't lie. I think I'm very much in that work hard play much fucking harder. Spiral.

But yeah, so actually on the Friday went out with two friends. And we were in a pub in Bromley randomly. And just chatting away.

And then a band started setting up and we saw like a covers band that we're doing kind of noughties. It was a lot of like Fratellis and then occasionally they'll be like, Oh, we're putting a Fleetwood Mac song because actually we're really hardcore. Yeah, and all of that.

So again, lots of dancing, lots of singing along. That's awesome. Yeah, really nice.

Whenever anyone says that they've been out in Bromley, I just immediately assume that they mean Tiger Tiger, which hasn't been there for years. When was there ever a Tiger Tiger in Bromley? There was! Where? Now you're gonna make me look it up. There was a walkabout.

I know there was a walkabout. Walkabouts always make me think of university. I once completely changed outfits with a girl I met in the toilet at that walkabout.

Did you? Wow. I will forever remember that there was a when I was at uni, we did a in freshers week, I met this girl. And she was from a little country bumpkin place in Shropshire.

And she messaged me, we've been doing like all the different things like we've done a block party at the residences and we've done like bar crawls and whatever. And one of them was billed for I know that's just Flying Tiger Copenhagen in Bromley. That's not what I wanted to find.

Maybe I made it up. Maybe it's not in Bromley. I don't remember that ever being a Tiger Tiger in Bromley.

But no, with the walkabout she she messaged me and she was like, oh, on the on the rota for what we were doing in freshers week, one of them was walkabout Birmingham because that's where I went to uni. And she messaged me, and she went, What are you wearing tonight? And I said, Oh, probably just like skirt boots. This was back in my goth days.

So there was bound to have been a corset somewhere. And she was like, Oh, okay, you're like properly dressing up then I thought, Well, no, not really. It's just, just going to a bar.

She's like, Rachel, we're going for a walkabout. You're not wearing walking boots. So what do you what are you talking about? genuinely thought that walkabout Birmingham meant we were going to walk about Birmingham.

Yeah. Anyway, talking of pubs. Oh, dear.

Have you found it? There was it. Are you thinking of Croydon? I may have been thinking of Croydon. Maybe I'm just thinking of pubs in was there was there an old tiger's head in Bromley? Yeah, maybe that's the Tigers that no, I think I can name him.

Yeah, that Spencer worked in. There's the other like waitrose end now. Maybe that's it.

I don't know. But yeah, talking of pubs. Basically, Trevor's we were having a conversation the other day.

And what we've realized is that we can no longer have conversations as just mates. No, because every time we're too funny. We tell each other a story, and then the other one goes, and that would have been great for the start of the podcast.

So very, okay, I will pick up your tenuously dropped link. I found out and I can't remember exactly what it was on. It was I saw a reel of another podcast record.

It wasn't a true crime podcast. It was a comedian. And it was a Northern Irish comedian was talking and saying, Did you know about how pubs were named? And how in Ireland pubs are kind of they're named after the people that own them.

So you've got O'Malley's, you've got, you know, O'Neill's all of that kind of thing. But in England, they are they are still but were very much the black sheep, the king's arms, the this the that and it was something and it transpires that it was because a lot of the British couldn't read. So there was no good having a sign that said Tom's pub.

Yeah, because they couldn't read that. So it had to be something that the sign was very visual representation. So they'd know that's a picture of a black sheep.

So this, therefore, this pub is the black sheep. Yeah. Anyway, I was telling this story because I'm fun.

I found it fascinating in front of I was Yeah, I was talking about it in front of my mom and Richard. And some others. And they were like, Oh, right, that's it.

Anyway, and Richard went, Oh, yeah, but hang on. But like the king's arms. It's not like a picture, is it? Like, what? No, it's not a picture of arms.

It was like, when they say the king's arms, babe, they mean, as in coat of Not actually severed limbs. Not actually just here are some king's physical arms. I love it so much.

But the reason why I love it so much is because it just the amount of memories that came swimming back into my brain when you told me about it, of the stupid car games that we would play with my dad whenever we were on long journeys as kids, we used to play pub golf. And it was essentially like, I think also, sorry, I think when I first told you this, you too, I said to you, did you ever play pub golf as a kid? And you went, no, I don't like sports. I'm pretty sure you said something of that ilk.

I was just like, no, it's a game. It's not actual golf. I don't play sports.

I think I also said that I didn't play any of this kind of thing because I didn't go to uni. Oh, yeah, yeah. And it's like, this does strike me as a very like university thing.

Yeah, but for some reason, my dad would play it with us in long car journeys. And it's basically where you drive through all these little country towns and villages and all of that. And you have to keep your eyes peeled for the pubs.

And whenever you see a pub, if it's your turn, you go past pub, say is the black sheep, you get four points, because a sheep has four legs. So it's a leg based scoring system. Leg based scoring system.

So you get four legs on a sheep. So there's four points. But then if you get to something that doesn't have legs, so for example, if you got to the leaky bucket, you would lose, it wouldn't be your turn, it would be the next person's turn, because there's no legs on a leaky bucket.

Well done, David Attenborough. Exactly, right. And we used to play this all the time.

And I just remember being like, as I was growing up, it was just sort of this weird connotation of like, limbs and pubs have just always been in my psyche. I'm just like, Oh, how many legs is this got? So you can imagine the fox and firkin. The first thing I was thinking of was what is a firkin? Does it have legs? Turns out it's a measure of, it's a unit of measurement.

But yeah, but then it's also very similar to the fact that I called sheep minnows for a short period of time too. Okay, two follow up questions. Please expand on and also determine short period of time.

Can't remember short period of time. I was I was I was young. Are you lying to Trevor's? When did you find out? Well, I was probably I was probably my youngest daughter's age.

I was probably about four or five when I kind of realised that it wasn't a thing that other people. That is not what you said to me the other day. Listen, Trevor's I'm always just striving for the truth.

At least you know which one of us you can believe now. I called sheep minnows because Okay, because my dad, because my dad, who is lovely, wonderful. Hi, dad.

Used to, again, when we were driving through the countryside, whenever we saw sheep in a field, he would shout. Quick Rachel, there's quick Rachel. It's the mint sauce, because you have mint sauce with lamb.

And so when I was younger, I would try and say mint sauce, but I had a very strong South East London accent. Minnows. So he used to say minnows, minnows.

And that's why I call sheep minnows. But I swear there's things like that in every family, right? You call things or is it just my family who are random and make up things? I can't think of anything that we call. So like, we'll have things like, you know, you know, Shaka Khan.

Yeah, I do. You know, her famous song, Shaka Khan. So if we order Indian, we will have Tukka Dal.

Tukka Dal. Tukka Dal. I love that.

Yeah, we have. So instead of oyster cards, it's lobster cards. Don't ask.

Again, it's my dad thing. But what I realise is that when they become part of your vernacular, and then you say these things to other normal people, and they look at you like, what the fuck have you taken? Yeah. And that is my life most of the time.

I'm actually worried about the exposure therapy that I might have inadvertently had by spending so much time with you. I'm not going to lie, there'll be a couple of things. I've already, with your sister-in-law, I already think of her every time I put my shoes and socks on.

She will be letting herself at that. Yay, foliage. Yeah, but it's like, yeah, it's the same with like, I always say, you know how most people, when you get a shudder, like you might, if someone's, if someone's going to comment on it, because not everyone- Walked over your grave? Exactly.

No, mine is always, oh, just a little ogle. What? It's because, again, my dad. My dad was- He's been trolling you since you were born.

Since day one. He told me and my sister that it was, that's what it was called. It was called an ogle, when you got the involuntary shudder.

He's like, oh, it's an ogle. And I was like, is it? And it was adamant that it was. So we just kind of went along with it.

So for my entire life, it's just been, it's an ogle. Fucking ogle. Oh dear, you've got a story for me.

I have, and do you know what? It's not funny. No, it's not. It is not funny at all.

I did, I did wonder when, again, you volunteered to take this one on. I was just like, okay. I was like, I think we've worked out, like, I enjoy the darker.

I do like dark as well, but I'm, I'm quite, I don't know, maybe hardened to the dark. Yeah, I think what, I think what it is, is that. I try and avoid too many really dark ones just because I'm always a bit like, I don't know, I feel like I might, I'm not brave enough to do them.

That's what it is. I'll do the ones that I've got loads and loads of information. And I can then just be like, and here is the story.

Here is the tale. I don't need to dig too deep because it's all there for you to see. There you go.

Whereas you like to do the ones that are children. I like dead kids or dead old people. Well, is that where we're going? Yep.

Oh, mate. Fucking trigger warnings all over the show. It is a hefty one.

I can only apologise if, well, I didn't do it. Yeah, you don't, I don't think you need to apologise for this actually. But yeah, if you're not in the headspace, I would suggest maybe going back and listening to last week's again.

If you want something light. You want a heist, off your Jolly Well pop. Absolutely mental.

Yeah, because this isn't light. No. But as always, the references will be in the show notes.

And yeah, I've avoided kind of too much talk of the violence. Yeah. I put it in where I feel it was descriptively necessary.

Yeah, fair enough. And I've got some notes at the end as well about bits and bobs that I was a bit like, hmm, about or one thing in particular. No, well, yeah, anyway, you'll see.

Okay. Can't tell you now because it ruined the story. No, fair.

I'm settled. Okay, then I shall begin. On the morning of April 9th, 1986, a home help worker, Ivy Robinson, let herself into the to a basement flat on West Hill Road, Wandsworth.

Ivy was there to check in and support 78 year old Nancy Eames, who she visited regularly. Nancy, a retired school teacher, was quite an isolated individual and was also sadly living with dementia. That morning, however, Ivy was met with an eerie silence.

Nancy lay motionless in her bed. There were no immediate signs of a struggle, no blood, no disorder, nothing that screamed foul play. Ivy called in Nancy's death and that afternoon, given her age and frailty, a doctor certified the death as natural causes.

And it might have ended there, except something wasn't right. A few days later, Ivy had gone back in to clean up the flat and noticed that something was missing. Nancy's television.

She knew she hadn't moved it. She knew that it would have been too cumbersome for Nancy to have moved and also that no family members or anyone had been in removing items since Nancy's passing. Growing increasingly uneasy, she reported the theft to the police and they agreed something was off about the situation.

The police then designated Nancy's flat as a crime scene and cordoned it off. This also meant that Nancy's body would now be liable for a post-mortem examination. The findings of that post-mortem were horrific.

Nancy had been strangled, not with a ligature, not with a scarf or a belt, but by someone's bare hands. It was believed that she was attacked while she lay asleep in bed. The coroner noted that there was extensive bruising all over Nancy's upper body.

It was determined that the killer had actually climbed onto Nancy's body, kneeling on her chest in order to hold her down, whilst using their bare hands to crush her airway. Even more disturbingly, there was evidence that Nancy had been raped and sodomised after her death. The case was then obviously upgraded from a simple burglary to a murder inquiry.

The Met, whilst obviously taking the case seriously, had no reason to suspect that it was anything more than an isolated murder case. Despite the discovery of a single hair found in Nancy's bed that did not and could not have belonged to her, they didn't have much to go on, with no signs of forced entry, no witnesses and no immediate suspects. Early suspicions were that this was a horrible case of a burglary escalating into a murder.

It was determined that, due to the heat wave of 1986, Nancy had gone to bed with a window left open. It was decided that this was the likely entry point for the perpetrator. Police focused efforts on sifting through thousands of previously arrested burglars, sexual assault perpetrators and other known criminals operating in the South London area.

But before investigators could make any real progress, another body was discovered. On the 9th of June 1986, the body of Janet Cockett was found in her flat in Warwick House, part of the Overton Estate in Stockwell. Janet, who was 67 at the time of her death, was an active member of the estate's community, acting as the chairwoman of the Tenants' Association.

Janet had been married three times and had four children. She was a fairly recent widow, but still a very active person who loved spending time with her friends and family. Much like Nancy, Janet initially appeared to have peacefully passed away in bed.

However, on closer inspection, it was clear that she had also been murdered in a brutal and violent manner. Janet had been strangled again by someone's bare hands, and she had suffered two broken ribs from the sheer pressure of someone's weight on her upper body. Her nightdress had been forcibly removed, yet the perpetrator had taken the unsettling step of folding it carefully and placing it on a chair beside the bed.

Another peculiar detail emerged during the investigation. On the bedroom mantelpiece and all around the flat, family photographs had been deliberately repositioned, either turned face down or turned away or covered, seemingly as to remove watchful eyes from the room. Despite the chilling level of control and violence displayed, the killer made no effort to conceal his presence.

A clear palm print was discovered on the bathroom window, while a partial print was lifted from a nearby flowerpot. Semen was also discovered on Janet's bedsheets. Investigators concluded that the assailant had made entry through the bathroom window, which had been left open to let fresh air in on the warm summer night.

God, it's terrifying. Just a quick side quest. This was actually the first case that the Met attempted to use new technology available to them, DNA profiling.

Oh wow, I didn't know that. They had the semen stain analysed, but with little success as only a partial profile was obtained. Right.

At this stage, detectives handling the murders of Nancy and Janet shared findings, but with approximately one million people densely populated into the five miles separating the crime scenes, they found no immediate connection. Hmm. Despite this, the press very much insinuated that the cases were linked.

Media outlets were really ramping up the story and increasing the pressure on the Met to deliver results in both investigations. And within just over two weeks, events would make the Met question whether they actually did have a serial offender wreaking havoc in South London. On the 27th of June, 1986, retired engineer Fred Prentice was asleep in his bed within Bradmead, a council run.

Now, I should have said this a second ago, but everything I read and there's, there's a lot about this case, which if you haven't guessed what it is yet, you'll work, you'll get to it. And they describe these as old people's homes. Right.

Okay. I'm not 100% sure whether that's the right terminology for them anymore, whether it should be care home or like supported living or I don't know. Old people's home feels a bit like.

Funny farm. Yeah. It seems like one of those antiquated things that we don't say anymore.

But I also find it quite amusing that 67 is considered old. Yeah. I mean, if you look at photos of Fred, he was quite frail for a 67 year old.

Fine. Doesn't look necessarily like a 67 year old might look in 2025. Well, yeah, I think that's the thing, isn't it? It's like when you look at this, I can't remember what it was.

I think it was like the Golden Girls. It was like a picture. And they're all like 36.

They're all meant to be in the early 40s. But they look like absolutely not. But yeah.

Anyway. Okay. So yeah, Fred was asleep in his bed within Bradmead, a council run old people's home in Cedars Road, Clapham.

At approximately 3am, Fred was woken up by a noise in the corridor just outside his door. Fred saw a shadow through the frosted glass. Before he had time to react, a man entered his room.

As Fred attempted to turn on a bedside lamp, the man pounced on him using his knees to pin Fred to the bed. The intruder put his fingers to his lips and told Fred to shh. Then he placed his bare hands around Fred's throat and began to squeeze and release, seemingly playing with his victim.

Oh my god. All the while, the assailant sported a deranged grin and was whispering the word kill over and over again. Oh my god, it's like something out of a horror film.

While Fred was unable to call for help, he did not stop wildly struggling underneath the immense weight of the man. Remarkably, Fred managed to reach a panic button situated on the wall just by the bed. The attacker witnessed this and immediately threw Fred against a wall and escaped the room.

The warden responding to the alarm was inside Fred's room within it's either one minute or two minutes, reports vary. However, the attacker was long gone. Again, it was discovered that the assailant had entered the building through an open window, which had been left open due to the sweltering heat that London was experiencing.

Fred Prentice was later to describe this horrific and frightening ordeal. Quote, I was absolutely terrified, but there was nothing I could do. He was sitting on my chest with his fingers clutching at my neck.

I thought I was a goner. I kept pleading with him to let me go and take whatever he wanted and leave, but he took nothing and took no notice of me. It was a nightmare.

He then chucked my head against a wall and ran off. The blow almost knocked me unconscious and I slumped to the floor, too petrified to move. I suppose he thought he must have killed me because he ran out, leaving me for dead.

I was too frightened even to watch him go. I shall always have his face in my memory, his terrible grin. He ruined my life.

Detectives investigating the attempted murder of Fred considered whether this attack could be connected to the two previous homicides, but one detail left them uncertain, the shift in the killer's choice of victim, with the same offender target both men and women. This raised questions about whether they were dealing with a single perpetrator or multiple attackers. However, unlike the earlier cases, Fred had survived.

Though shaken and unable to provide a completely clear recollection, he was able to give police a description of his assailant. The attacker was described as young, in his late teens to mid-twenties, with dark hair and a tanned complexion. Detectives theorised that he was an experienced burglar, but one who had seemingly abandoned theft as his primary motive, instead choosing to kill for pleasure.

The way he had toyed with Fred suggested someone who relished the act of murder, a predator who would not stop unless caught. And they were right. The day after Fred was attacked, the assailant struck again.

On the 28th of June, 1986, the bodies of two men were discovered. 84-year-old Valentine Gleam and a World War II veteran known amongst the residents as a polite and gentle man, and 94-year-old Zbigniew Stabrawa, a Polish native who had survived decades of hardship before meeting his end in such a brutal way. Both were residents of council-run Somerville Hastings House in Stockholm Park present.

The two men had adjoining rooms at the care facility. Their deaths were equally as brutal as those of Nancy and Janet. The killer had knelt on their chests while strangling them with his bare hands.

Valentine had also been sexually assaulted and sodomised. Chillingly, it was later understood that the intruder had been spotted creeping through the corridors of the building by night-duty staff. The police were called, but the man had vanished by the time they arrived.

Once again, he had entered the building through an open window. The staff of the home told the police another chilling detail. They'd heard a peculiar sound during the time the perpetrator was in the building.

It would seem that either after the attacks or in between the two murders, the killer had stopped, used a flannel to wash himself and an electric razor to shave. Whilst the care home worker hadn't assumed it was anything like what was actually going on, they did think it was unusual that they could hear the tap and the razor at that time of night. And it kind of all kind of meshed into one that then there was a person spotted.

And so the police were called. So like, that's why that person didn't go immediately into the room where the noise was and stuff like that. So detectives struggled to understand the motive.

And by now the press noise surrounding the case was at a fever pitch. Detective Chief Superintendent Ken Thompson of Scotland Yard put in charge of a unified case. Over 200 detectives were taken off other duties to try to find the man originally dubbed by the newspapers as the heatwave killer.

That was until one journalist coined the phrase, the Stockwell Strangler and the name stuck. Dozens of old people's homes in South London were watched through the night by groups of plain police officers. There was a hugely ramped up visible police presence on the streets of South London and the public were advised to lock all windows and doors.

Detective Superintendent Ken Thompson stated, quote, we are dealing with a man who appears to have a total disregard for human life. His attacks are cowardly and brutal, targeting the most vulnerable members of our community. The public were rightfully terrified.

And despite the largest manhunt in South London's history, the killer was still free. And over the next month he would continue to kill. On the 9th of July, 1986, the body of William Carman was discovered in his home.

William lived in a flat in Sybil Thorndyke House on the Marquis Estate or Markway? Marquis. Marquis, yeah. Marquis of Gamby.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, on the 321 bus route. Um, but that was in Islington.

Oh, that's right. The killer had crossed the water. Did he stay there? God damn it.

It was thought that William had been murdered sometime between the 6th and the 9th of July. The 82 year old widower was found dead in his bed with the sheet neatly pulled up under his chin. William had been strangled and sexually assaulted.

Oh. For the first time since the death of Nancy, there was a clear sign of theft. Somewhere between £400 and £500 in savings that William had hidden in his flat had been taken.

And the flat had been completely ransacked. Although it was still believed by those investigating that the robbery aspect was definitely a secondary motive and not the intended objective. Yeah, okay.

So three days later, on the 12th of July, another elderly man was found murdered in his home. Trevor Thomas was discovered in the bath at his home in Barton Court, Jeffreys Road, Clapham. It was unclear when the murder took place, the time of death possibly being a number of weeks before the discovery of his body.

As a result, much of the forensic evidence found with the body was so deteriorated that it was beyond usable. It was impossible to determine whether he had been strangled or sexually assaulted. And so for this reason, Mr Thomas was not initially included in the stranglers list of victims.

But police were like 90% certain that they were looking at the sixth victim of the Stockwell strangler. Yeah, that's so sad. Then it's like there's a gap between it happening and being found.

It just makes you think like, I know, I don't know his situation, but like, was there no one missing him? Like, it's just, it's just sad. I know, it's horrible. Then, almost unimaginably, on the 20th of July, the body of yet another victim was discovered.

William Downs, who was 74 years old, lived alone in his flat in Holly's House, part of the Overton Estate. Oh, okay. For those of you paying attention, yes, that's the very same estate where Janet, the second known victim, lived.

Mr Downs' son said that he had warned him about the strangler, quote, I want him to keep his doors and windows locked, especially at night. But it was so hot. And I think he left one slightly open just to let some air in.

William had been strangled and assaulted by the killer. Fucking hell. Murder squad detectives were able to pick up an excellent new lead from the scene of Mr Downs' murder.

On a wall in the kitchen and on the garden gate, they found the killer's palm prints. They were an exact match to the ones left at the home of Janet. But Scotland Yard couldn't yet match them with anyone on their files.

It's always terrifying when it's like you've got a DNA match, or you've got fingerprints, but they're useless because you don't know who they belong to. So in 1986, the Met's police fingerprint records were undergoing a major transition as they were being transferred to a computerised system. However, palm prints had not yet been digitalised, meaning detectives couldn't simply run the prints found, you know, through a database or anything.

So instead, a small team of officers was tasked with manually searching through millions of files. A painstaking process that would take months. There were over four million fingerprint records, an overwhelming number that all had to be visually compared.

Visually compared, Christ on a bike. To narrow their focus, detectives limited their search to known London-based burglars and petty criminals, a logical step, given that the killer had shown expertise in breaking into homes without forced entry. Even with this refined search, the task was monumental, and it took three months before they finally found a match.

The palm prints found at two of the murder scenes belonged to Kenneth Erskine, a career burglar with a long history of petty crime and arrests. But the discovery had come too late to save his final victim. 80-year-old Florence Tisdall lived alone in an upmarket apartment block at Ranley Gardens.

near Putney Bridge. A widow, she was known for her independence and elegant lifestyle, enjoying her retirement in one of London's more desirable riverside locations. On July the 23rd, 1986, Florence had spent her evening watching the wedding of Prince Andrew and Sarah Ferguson on television.

It was another sweltering summer night, and like so many others that season, she left a window open for fresh air. And that was all that Erskine needed. By the following morning, Florence was found manly strangled, sexually assaulted, and with broken ribs, where her killer had once again knelt on his victim's chest as he crushed the life from her.

It was only after Florence's murder that the police finally managed to identify Erskine and have him as their suspect. So, also, is it Erskine, is it Erskine? Is it Erskine? I think it's Erskine. I think so.

I think Erskine. I mean, to be fair, I don't really care. He's, yeah, he's a cunt, that's who he is.

So, yeah, now that detectives knew the identity of the Stockwell strangler, their biggest challenge was tracking him down. He was a drifter. He had no permanent address, no known employer, and no stable routine.

He moved between hostels, squats, and shelters, slipping through the cracks of society. Knowing he could strike again at any moment, police rushed to search homeless shelters, hostels, and other known squatting locations. The next major break in the case came when detectives discovered that Kenneth was actively claiming unemployment benefits from a Department of Social Security office in Southwark, and that he was quite well known by the staff there, who knew him as the Whisperer, on account of his very quiet and timid voice.

This gave them something they had not yet had, certainty about where and when he would appear next. Records showed that Kenneth was due to collect his next benefit payment on July the 28th. A team of detectives was discreetly positioned around the building, watching and waiting.

At exactly the time he was expected, Kenneth walked through the doors and joined the queue, waiting for his payment. Officers moved in silently and efficiently, and before he could react, the handcuffs were snapped onto his wrists. He did not struggle.

With his arrest, the reign of terror that had gripped South London was finally over. Catching Kenneth had been difficult, but questioning him was even harder. It was discovered that he had the reasoning ability of a child, and most reports state that his mental capacity and functionality was equivalent to that of maybe a 10-year-old, some say 12, around that.

But it made it very difficult for detectives to get anything useful out of him. He spent much of the interrogation giggling, staring vacantly out the window, or avoiding questions altogether. Police discovered documents in his possession that revealed something eerie.

Despite being officially unemployed, Kenneth had opened multiple bank and building society accounts. Records showed that during his months-long killing spree, he had deposited nearly three grand into these accounts. As the money had no legitimate source, it was clear that he had been stealing from his victims during his attacks.

One transaction stood out. On the 9th of July, the day after William Carman was murdered and robbed of between 400 and 500 pounds, Kenneth deposited 350 pounds into one of his building society accounts. Whilst not definitive, it was a damning circumstantial link, one that the prosecution would later use to strengthen their case.

Whilst questioning was underway, investigations were still going strong behind the scenes. A new act, the Police and Criminal Evidence Act, or PACE, had been established in 1984. The act sought to ensure that no one could be detained without legal justification.

This meant that detectives only had 24 hours to hold Kenneth without charge. That links back to our Michelle Confey episode. But they had an ace up their sleeve.

One charge they knew would be ironclad and would ensure that they could keep the Stockwell strangler off the streets of South London, the attempted murder of Fred Prentice. Despite his traumatic ordeal, Fred was more than willing to help put his attacker behind bars. At an identity parade in Clapham Police Station, he picked Kenneth out immediately without hesitation.

Kenneth was charged and held and obviously denied bail. During this period, police also took the somewhat unusual step of releasing Kenneth's picture to the press. They asked the public for any information about the man in the photograph and implored anyone who had seen anything to come forward.

And they soon received a critical lead. Among those who came forward was 25-year-old businesswoman Denise Keener, who had experienced a terrifying brush with Kenneth. Keener told detectives that on the night of July the 23rd, 1986, approximately just one hour after the murder of Florence in Fulham, 200 metres away, she had seen a dishevelled looking man vomiting into the Thames at Putney Bridge.

As she walked past, she caught his gaze. What she saw haunted her and I quote, he had this sort of terrible grin on his face. He looked as if he was out of control.

It was a horrible, awful, disgusting expression. He had wide staring eyes and his mouth was open. All the muscles and tendons in his face were standing out, drawn tight against his bones.

The sight had unnerved her so much that she actually called the police that night. But by the time officers arrived, the man had vanished. Now, seeing Kenneth's face in the newspaper, she was certain it was the same man.

God. Like Fred before her, she picked him out of an identity parade without hesitation and later testified against him in court. Wow.

Good on her. So before we get into the trial, who is Kenneth? Yeah. So Kenneth Erskine, born on the 1st of July, 1963 in Hammersmith, London, was the eldest of four children to an English mother, Margaret and Antiguan father, Charles.

The family resided in a council flat in Putney. Kenneth's early years were marred by instability. He and his three younger brothers frequently found themselves in care homes or with foster families due to familial disruptions.

His parents' tumultuous relationship culminated in divorce when Kenneth was around 12 years old. In his formative years, neighbours recalled Kenneth as a cheerful, chubby boy who often read the Bible and professed beliefs in love and peace. However, following his parents' separation, his demeanour shifted dramatically.

He became increasingly difficult to manage, exhibiting aggressive behaviours such as bullying smaller children, attacking peers without provocation and tying them up. Kenneth was sent to a series of schools for, I quote the report, maladjusted children. And his time at these was punctuated by several violent attacks on the teaching staff and other pupils.

These included stabbing a teacher through the hand with scissors and taking hostage a psychiatric nurse who tried to examine him by holding a pair of scissors at her throat, pushing a fellow pupil off a moving bus and starting a fire that caused considerable damage to one of the schools. And that wasn't everything discovered about Kenneth's formative years. It was also reported that he had tried to drown several other children on a school trip to a swimming pool by holding their heads underwater until staff intervened.

Discipline didn't seem to work on him and whenever staff tried a different approach such as understanding or trying to show the boys some affection, he would try his hardest to shock them by rubbing himself against them in a sexual manner or by exposing himself to them and masturbating. God. Kenneth was cast out of his family at the age of 16 after several episodes at home proved too much for his family.

It is reported that he twice tried to hang one of his younger brothers, John. Bloody hell. And it was when he tried to give that same brother cannabis that his parents called it as the final straw.

He was completely disowned by his family. He was kicked out and was to never have anything to do with any of them ever again. Wow.

Kenneth then descended into a life of drinking, drug taking and homelessness. He turned to crime as a way to fund his lifestyle and his increasing dependencies. Kenneth's criminal activities revolved mostly around burglaries and petty thefts, often targeting gas and electric meters, breaking them open for whatever small change he could find.

His hauls rarely amounted to more than a few pounds. On the occasions when he stole more valuable items, a television, a camera, jewellery or antiques, he would sell them to backstreet dealers for a fraction of their worth, using the money to buy food and to fund his growing drug habit. Despite the frequency of his break-ins, Kenneth was far from a skilled burglar at this point.

His sloppy methods and carelessness led to multiple arrests over the years, eventually landing him in Feltham, Young Offenders Institution in Hounslow, West London. While serving time, Kenneth turned to drawing and painting, covering the walls of his shared cell with disturbing artwork. His cellmate, James Dole, another habitual burglar, later recalled the unsettling nature of Erskine's sketches.

The images provided a chilling insight into his mind. They almost always depicted elderly people being murdered in brutal ways. Many were shown lying in bed, gagged and stabbed, burned alive or even decapitated, with blood gushing from their necks.

James later went on to say, he was always talking of killing people. He once boasted that he had murdered an old person in Enfield and hinted that he had killed others. When he was taunted by other prisoners, for whatever reasons, he'd fly into a rage.

He would get really mad and then when they were least expecting it, he'd pick up a chair and hit them over the head. Despite concerns from doctors at Feltham, who strongly advised against releasing him, Erskine was let out in 1982. What? He immediately fell back into his old pattern, drifting between hostels, squats and the streets, taking drugs and committing petty crimes just to survive.

Kenneth appeared to have no social ties whatsoever. Unlike many drifters, he wasn't part of any group, he had no known associates and was rarely mentioned by others. When detectives later investigated his background after his arrest, they found that no one truly knew him.

He had no possessions, no home, no real identity beyond the crimes he committed. The only things to his name when he was arrested were the clothes on his back and a handful of building society books and documents, details of the bank accounts that contained the stolen money he had deposited. Wow.

So seemingly for four years, he drifted aimlessly, unnoticed and unremarkable. But in 1986, something inside him snapped. So, what do the police have against him? Okay.

So they've got the palm prints. They were found at two locations and eventually matched to records already on file for Kenneth. They had DNA and biological evidence.

So there were semen samples recovered from multiple sites. And although the early DNA analysis wasn't conclusive enough to be the sole evidence against him, it did strongly suggest his involvement in multiple murders. Yeah.

They had eyewitnesses. So the police had Fred and Denise. And as well as these, they had the description from the care home staff at the site of the double murder, Somerville Hastings House, that matched Kenneth pretty spot on.

They had the financial evidence and stolen property. So they had the evidence of the multiple bank accounts and the deposits made around the times of the murders. And after releasing information to the press, multiple people had actually come forward to help identify and locate stolen property that they knew Kenneth had sold on.

Right, okay. And then when that property was then tracked down, it was, it had come from the site of these murders. Wow.

So, I mean, it's kind of, that made me think like it, his crimes are so heinous that even like career criminals that, you know, backstreet dealers that had sold on all this stolen, like knowingly sold stolen goods came to the police. Yeah, that is mad. Bloody hell.

And then finally, they had the reports of Kenneth's own behaviour during the arrest and interrogation. So, yeah, during questioning, Kenneth was erratic and uncooperative, frequently giggling and staring, like I said. However, when presented with specific evidence, he would suddenly fall silent or just refuse to answer.

He never gave any explanation for the bank deposits or palm prints or any other of the evidence. So, he didn't try and defend himself at all, really. He just didn't say anything.

Wow. So, while not every murder had direct forensic evidence, the pattern of evidence was so overwhelming that the police determined they had got their Stockwell Strangler. Yeah, 100%.

So, Kenneth's trial commenced in January of 1988 at the Old Bailey in London. The presiding judge was Mr Justice Rose. The prosecution was led by William Clegg QC, Casey now, while Kenneth's defence was represented by Brian Roberts.

Throughout the trial, Kenneth's behaviour was notably just as erratic as it had been during the interrogation. He often appeared detached, at times giggling or staring into space, which raised questions about his mental state. Yeah.

William Clegg highlighted during the trial the calculated nature of Erkskine's actions, stating, these were deliberate and premeditated killings, targeting those least able to defend themselves. So, the jury found 24-year-old Kenneth Erkskine 24! Yeah. Guilty of seven counts of murder.

Fucking hell. The judge sentenced him to life imprisonment, recommending a minimum term of 40 years, a notably severe sentence in British legal history. Yeah, 100%.

Mr Justice Rose made it clear that Kenneth was a danger to society and that his actions had left an entire community in fear. Quote, these were appalling and terrifying acts on vulnerable elderly people. Your crimes caused fear and panic across South London and the brutality with which you committed them defies understanding.

There can be no possibility of your release for many decades, if ever. His words demonstrated the sheer shock and revulsion felt by those who had followed the case. Yeah.

Kenneth, however, did not react in any way. Christ, this man is terrifying. So the conviction was met with a mixture of relief and horror, understandably.

So for the victim's families, the verdict had provided justice, but it did not erase the trauma of knowing and hearing how their loved ones had suffered. Some expressed anger that Kenneth had not been caught sooner, while others struggled to comprehend the sheer brutality of his crimes. The press, which had followed the case closely, labelled him one of Britain's most sadistic serial killers.

I don't disagree. Shortly after his sentencing, Kenneth was sent to Wakefield Prison, a high security facility known for housing some of Britain's most dangerous criminals. But it soon became evident that Kenneth was not functioning like a typical prisoner.

He would often sit and stare blankly for hours, showing absolutely no interest in his surroundings whatsoever. He's observed talking to himself, sometimes laughing or muttering incoherently, and he refused to bathe and his personal hygiene deteriorated really rapidly. Later that year, he was transferred from prison under the Mental Health Act of 1983 to the Maximum Security Broadmoor Hospital.

So Broadmoor Hospital has long been known to home some of the most infamous criminals in British history, including Ronnie Cray and Peter Sutcliffe. However, Kenneth has remained relatively absent from headlines and the infamy of Broadmoor during the decades he's been incarcerated, only occasionally resurfacing into the public eye. One such resurfacing happened on the 23rd of February, 1996, when it was released that Kenneth had saved the life of a fellow serial killer, Peter Sutcliffe.

Well done. Sutcliffe was attacked in his room in Broadmoor Hospital's Henley Ward by Paul Wilson, a convicted robber, who asked to borrow a videotape before attempting to strangle him with the cable from a pair of stereo headphones. Kenneth and convicted murderer Jamie Devett intervened upon hearing the screams.

After that, Kenneth largely faded from public attention again until 2005, when reports emerged that he was being considered for transfer to a medium security facility. A mental health tribunal deemed him no longer a serious danger to the public and recommended a move to Lambeth Hospital, a decision that sparked outrage as the facility was located in Stockwell, the very area where all his crimes had taken place, apart from that one in Islington. I worked there.

I don't know. Oh, oh my God. I know.

The backlash was swift, with one Broadmoor insider coming forward and saying, medical staff and psychiatrists now believe that he is a low risk. If he is allowed to go back home, it will be an insult to all of those old people he killed. The public may accept him being moved to a low security unit, but putting him in South London is a step too far.

A thousand percent. So I couldn't figure out the exact report outcome thing of the considerations, other than that the public outcry was also met with expressions of opposition from members of Parliament. But it is well documented that Kenneth stayed in Broadmoor.

Good. At that time. Oh, for God's sake.

So in July 2009, Kenneth's legal team successfully appealed his murder convictions. What? Which was subsequently reduced to manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility. No, no, no, no, no, no.

Right. Right. The ruling delivered by Lord Chief Justice, Lord Judge, along with two other judges.

I mean, imagine being a Lord Judge. Your surname is Judge. Like, fucking hell.

Judge, Judge. I am Judge, Judge. So along with two other judges at the Court of Appeal in London, was based on new medical evidence confirming that Kenneth had suffered from severe clinical schizophrenia during his whole life, like most of his life.

Yeah. Psychiatrist Dr Andrew Horn, who had treated Kenneth for over 20 years, testified that Kenneth's mental illness would have dramatically diminished his responsibility for his crimes. His defence counsel, Mr Edward Fitzgerald, emphasised that Kenneth's schizophrenia was chronic, incurable and required lifelong treatment.

He also stated that Kenneth would only ever be considered for release if detention was no longer necessary to protect the public. Delivering the judgment, Lord Judge stated, quote, this is a straightforward case. It is overwhelmingly clear that at the time the appellant appeared at trial, there was unequivocal contemporaneous Contemporaneous.

Wow. That his mental responsibility for his actions at the time of killing was substantially impaired. We are satisfied that the convictions for murder were unsafe.

As a result, the murder convictions were overturned and Kenneth was instead given an indefinite hospital order under the Mental Health Act, ensuring that he would remain detained in a secure psychiatric facility for as long as necessary. While the appeal changed Kenneth's legal classification, it did not immediately alter his status as a high risk individual. He remained under secure detention for several years until 2016, when his risk status was downgraded.

And he was then moved to Thorn Park Hospital, a medium secure, medium security psychiatric facility in Thatcham, Berkshire. He was really fucking ill. I don't, I don't doubt it.

I don't doubt it. I just think that it's, it's, it's so difficult, isn't it? Because like, if you think about the families, like it's, yeah, whatever you, however you look at it, it's, it's horrible on all fronts. So some reports, and I really must stress that this bit didn't come from the most reputable of sources.

But some reports I read suggested that he may be considered for release in the future, in the near future. The question of why Kenneth transitioned from a prolific burglar to a sadistic serial killer remains unanswered. And while his schizophrenia has been cited as a major factor, mental health professionals widely acknowledge that most individuals living with schizophrenia do not commit violent crimes, let alone brutal serial murders.

Yeah, exactly. So can, can it ever be considered safe? Though Kenneth's legal status changed, the horror of his crimes has not faded, leaving an enduring impact on the families of his victims and the public at large. His name may not be as widely remembered as other serial killers, but for those who lived through the summer of 86, his reign of terror will never be forgotten.

Absolutely not. Oh, mate. This is where I just wanted to put one note in.

Yeah. So we had this case suggested to us by multiple people, one of which said they'd just listened to a, the episode, had just listened to the podcast They Walk Among Us. Yes.

Who did a two-parter on it. Yeah. Now, there are quotes and reports in that podcast that directly quote Kenneth.

Right. As admitting complete responsibility for his crimes and also saying, and I'm paraphrasing now, but saying that he thought he was liable for the death penalty. So that's why he didn't say a word because he didn't want to be killed.

Right. So he was genuine, apparently genuinely fearful for his life, therefore didn't communicate in any way. Yeah.

Whereas if he'd known he would have been given. A hospital order. Or if he'd known he was just going to prison.

Yeah. He would have, he said at the time, he would have admitted what he'd done and talked them through it and kind of all of that. However, I didn't want to just directly plagiarise another podcast.

And I couldn't find any sources of my own to back that up or to quote from. So I haven't, I'm putting it in as anecdotal that I heard it too. Yeah.

And the last line on the document I have here just says, it might just be me being shit at Google. I don't think so, mate. Not from the rest of the info that you've given us.

I don't think you're shit at Google. But that is the case of the Stockwell strangler. Oh, mate.

What a bloody case. It's a wild ride. I don't know if you could tell, but I was absolutely enthralled.

Did you see that? I didn't enjoy it very much. I feel like I might have just like gone on an absolute diatribe. No, no.

It was it was it. I mean, it's fascinating in in horrific ways. Yeah.

So now you told it incredibly well. So I thank you. I have.

Thank you. So I took a really big swig of my trip. That's all right.

You're enjoying it. Trip, sponsor us. Or they walk among us, maybe do a joint episode with us somehow.

But no, I knew the name. I knew that it was elderly people. I didn't know how short a time span it was.

Fucking spree. Like, my God. Fast.

And I did not know the descriptions of his face. Yeah, it's nightmare fuel. Honest to God.

It's going to haunt my in my head. All I've got. Sorry to make the.

Yeah, it's that. But it's either the really shitty film, Smile. Oh, I haven't seen it.

But I know the poster. I mean, the first one was and I quote someone, Johnny, yeah, on Facebook. He's drinking pub.

Really lovely man. But he quoted on his Facebook at the time of that film coming out. He just went, well, what a horrible little film that was.

And I agree. It's either that or it's Aphex Twin, Come to Daddy. Yes, that's quite well.

Kind of what I had in my head, that kind of plasticine. For some reason, I also and I know this is not right. Yeah, but I don't know, because I'm the geeks are going to come for me.

Well, is it Phantom Menace? Are you trying to say Darth Maul? The one that's like red. Yeah, yeah. I don't know why that came in my head when I was reading about it.

Interesting. Yeah, no, I could just keep up the good work. I could just see, is it come to daddy the video or is it Winderlicker? Where he's got the, you know what I'm talking about, the Aphex Twin face.

But yeah, that is just horrific. And I know the photo that we've used on the website of him as well. And I'm then just picturing that with that.

Yeah, it's that is terrifying. And then the other thing for those, because I know we do randomly, we do have some people who listen to us from the States and other parts of the world. I just need to reiterate something that you might be wondering.

We don't have air conditioning. Oh, yeah, no. In the United Kingdom.

It is not a thing. You may be have it in a shopping centre. You might have it in plush upmarket restaurant or hotel.

We do not have it in our homes as a given. It's just not that this country isn't warm enough to warrant it. However, you will, if you ever come to the UK, find that everyone in the UK will do this thing where we always talk about the weather and it's always or it's just a little bit too hot.

We always can't wait for it to get hot, but then it's always a little bit too hot. So we don't have air con. It's not a thing, which is why windows are open when it is hot in this country.

And that is not just because this case took place in 1986. It's still the case today. I have a portable air conditioning unit in the tiny shed because it does turn into a sauna.

But that is it. You don't have them as standard. No.

So you would have windows open. Exactly. Exactly what you would do.

Exactly. And to tell someone like. It's just horrific.

It's just that whole idea of someone coming in through an open window. No, it's just it's no, no. And murder is murder, right? It's never fine.

No, exactly. Old people, man. I know.

I know. There is something. It's like the very young and the very old.

You just don't. They're not for grabs. Pick on someone your own size.

I just. It just made me want to bring my gram. Yeah, fair.

Legendary. Yeah, like. GB.

GB. Yeah, it's it's not. It's not pleasant at all.

But I mean. Good on the police for sticking with the manual. Yeah.

Fingerprint searching for million fingerprint records. And then that's mad. I know.

Can you imagine? It's just yeah, yeah. It was a fucking great break in the case. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Otherwise, I mean, there's absolutely no indication he would have stopped. No, not at all. And I think that that's why I know I kind of went.

Oh, for fuck. When it was reduced to manslaughter, because even though I 100% understand and support the concept that there are some acts that are committed when someone is not in their right mind. I agree with that.

Shall we just take a second to check? Because I did this. I wrote this and I had the exact same reaction. Yeah.

And then I remembered the case I'd just done. Yeah. In which a middle class woman had a mental health break and we were incredibly sympathetic and agreed that what happened judicially was the right thing.

But I think that that's it. Because this man is one, a man because he's homeless, because a drug addict, a burglar. I know the crimes are heinous.

And it's not the same at all. I can't compare the two. It is not the same.

But when you are comparing the reaction to mental health being a mitigating factor. I agree. I agree.

I think that it's like. I think I need to check my bias. Yeah, no, no, no.

And I think it's good to call it out. And I'm happy to be challenged on it. I just think that part of the reason why I think the they are such different cases.

And yes, there is mental health involved in both of them. Very, very clearly in both of them. Because even if even though it took however many years for him for that to be changed and for them to say that he was schizophrenic.

It's very obvious from the way that he's acting. It's very obvious from the way from a very young age. Something is not quite right.

Yes. And I think that that's blatantly obvious to anyone who's looking at it. I think where the differences and where the sympathy disappears a little bit is the fact that with the Clarence case.

That was a mother who was under immense strain and stress doing something that she thought was going to be better for her children. Exactly. Than the situation they were currently in.

This is. I yeah, I don't have sympathy for him. Yeah.

It's he he's he has made whether or not he is. I think he couldn't make decisions. No, no, no.

But he's he's. If he'd been kept in Feltham. Yeah, I know.

As all the doctors warned that he shouldn't have been released. I think I mean, it's always so difficult, isn't it? Because I mean, even when we look at the cases that we did from the episode I did about slam and like those cases were horrific as well. And there was and you're right.

We probably were quite sensitive to those and quite understanding of those. And there were horrific cases in that. But again, I don't know if that's because it's it's.

All of those people, their murders were the result of it was either a close family relative that they had hurt or it was someone that they were living with that there had been. So there had been that's almost like it's you snap and it's it's there. It's instantaneous.

It's something that's happened. This feels like it's premeditated. I agree.

Which is why I think I struggle with it. I don't think it's necessarily that he's a homeless man or he's he's like. It's not the class.

It's not the class at all. It's the fact that he has actively gone to find open windows. Yeah, he's actively gone to find open windows of elderly people.

Like there is some there is some planning, whether that's in a in a sane mind. Yeah, it's just the what capacity was that planning? Exactly. In what capacity were those decisions made? And I think it's clear that there was like, you know, diminished responsibility.

What else can you call it? I agree. I agree. It is.

And I think that like, you know, that's that's completely fair and as I say, fairly bloody obvious for anyone who's looking at it. Like this is not someone who's masking. This is someone who's very obviously is in mental distress.

But I think is that's what that's where my. Yeah, I mean, it was a reign of terror. And it was.

I can't imagine the fear that everybody. Yeah. In London, not just South London.

No. Was living in during that time. I had to put granny in a bunker.

I don't know what I would do. I don't know what I would do. No, it's horrific.

Put her in the basement. I must have told that before. What? Just to lighten the mood.

Go on. We can't leave it on that. So my parents live in a lovely house.

Yes. And I won't beat around the bush. Some of you have been there.

It's quite big. I don't know if you can tell by my accent. You sound just like me, Lovato.

What are you on about? Mean horse. Hey, mummy, look, it's mint horse. No, I said mint horse.

That's not what I meant at all. I've got a lovely vision. I might be posh, but I'm thick as shit.

But like, and when I first met Rich, we had a running joke of like, oh, did you leave your phone in the West Wing? Or like, I'll just go and get that from the East Wing. Bear with me, caller. So, and without prior conversation about this, my whole immediate family that lived in that house just went along with when I said, can you go and get that from the basement? And then for quite a while, I'm going to say weeks, one of us would just casually go into another room, open a cupboard and get into the cupboard and bang on the side as if we were going down some stairs to get things from this mystical basement that did not exist.

And it was only when Richard went, I'll come to the basement with you. You're not scared. Is it not spiders? I was like, oh, babe, there is no basement.

We're just winding you up. But for those few weeks, like when you'd stay over and he'd be like, oh, I really fancy a Sprite or something. Can you go and like, go and get me one? Oh no, they're in the basement.

I can't be arsed. Really got me out of having just to walk down the stairs to the kitchen. Oh my God, I love it so much.

But it was just that the fact that like everyone, my mum, my stepdad, brother and sister, we all were just like, yep, basement, fine. I'm in, I'm in on the joke. I love it when that all comes together.

It's like when my sister decided to tell her best friend that we had twin brothers. One was his real name and the other one was Timmy and she didn't need to say to any of us that that's what she was doing. We would just all, including my brother, who would occasionally answer to Timmy instead of his actual name.

So her best friend, it was a good, I'd say a good six months before she's raised. So yeah, I love those. Oh, I wish I would have seen Rich trying to go into the basement.

No, no, you won't. Because it is a fantasy. Oh dear, well, thank you so much, mate.

Honestly, I mean, I don't want to say it was brilliant because that feels like, yes, I loved hearing about all the death and destruction, but it was very well researched. It was, you told it brilliantly. And I could get my teeth in.

Yeah, you're all good, don't worry. Yeah, harrowing, but yeah, thank you. I suppose that just leaves us to do with the nice bits.

Yeah, why not, eh? Why not indeed. There's an Instagram. There is an Instagram.

Floating Heads, I'm trying. We've had a few Floating Heads. Who knows? No, there isn't, I've already.

No, I mean, maybe I was going to say maybe I'll be in one again. Mate, fucking calm down. Christmas is over, damn it.

That level of excitement is absolutely unjustified. Fine, and I said maybe. You all heard it though, you all heard it.

Yeah, Floating Heads, I've actually even scheduled this week's one. Oh my. Because I'm going on a school trip.

Oh yeah. So I won't be able to do it. So yeah, I've scheduled it.

It's all been done. Bloody hell. Thank you to those people who have been pinging me little links.

Yeah, I haven't seen those, I haven't seen that. It's really cool. I love it.

I think I have actually put in Friday's video though. It's like, it's wonderful and really unnerving at the same time. That the moment something bad happens in South London, you all think of us.

Um, I mean, I wouldn't have it any other way. Please do not stop. But it's just quite, it's quite amusing.

So yeah, that's there. We've, I've actually, I took all of the. Floating Heads.

All of the Floating Heads. And put them on TikTok. We now have more videos on TikTok and really randomly have got a load of followers on it, which is like bizarre.

I'm gonna get that creator money. I know, well, I mean, I think we've got about 16. But it's still higher than it was.

Hi guys. I'm just coming here today to show you my vape. You can buy these vapes.

I did see a woman on there the other day who was like, when did it become QVC? Literally, I can't scroll through without like being like, oh, okay. Yeah, it's madness. I've gone as, anyway, no one needs to know this information.

I've gone from scrolling to actively searching out the people I follow to look at if they've posted. Oh, wow. Yeah.

That's just adverts for mops and dash cams. Yeah. That's all I get.

Yeah, I get loads of very attractive women in very lovely looking dresses trying to persuade me that I would look good in that dress. I thought you were going to say that you had the same algorithm as comedian John Robbins, who's recently just said his, I think it's on Instagram, but his algorithm just keeps providing him with large chested ladies in low cut tops, not quite walking, not quite running, at camera explaining something. Well, I'm now immediately going to go and try and find some of those videos.

I'd love it if you and one of my favourite comedians had the same algorithm. It would be very vindicating for me. I also feel like worlds will have collided because there were so many times that we stood outside of Up the Creek and I said to you, he's there, just go and say hello.

Listen, we have spoken about how I'm stashed up before. Maybe that'll be the intro to the next episode. And we can talk about the things I've said to famous people.

Deal. But yeah, so we do have an Instagram. We do have a TikTok that is being updated.

We have the website, which is being updated. It's all there. There's an email address.

I check it. Yeah, exactly. There is an email address.

And we've got the Facebook group. So go along and say hello to all the lovely YouTubers. Have fun there, yeah.

Yeah. So it's my turn next week. It is.

Yeah, I'm trying to think what I'm doing. Better be bloody good, love. I'm hoping.

I'm hoping. I mean, all I can say is that I don't, I think I've reached my peak with Freybentos pies being painted. You never know.

But yeah, I suppose that's it really, isn't it? Thanks for listening, Trev. Thanks, guys. We do love you very much.

And we'll see you next time. See you next week.