Burglary Turned Fatal: The death of Henry Vincent and the Richard Osborn-Brooks case

 When 78-year-old Richard Osborn-Brooks awoke to find two intruders in his South London home, he made a split-second decision that would change his life forever. One burglar fled. The other, Henry Vincent, was fatally stabbed. But what followed was almost as shocking—the pensioner’s arrest, a furious public debate over self-defence laws, and a tense standoff between Vincent’s grieving family and the local community. In this episode, we break down the crime, the legal grey areas, and the bizarre fallout—including a funeral procession showdown, a police-protected pensioner, and a heated debate over whether justice was truly served. 

Plus, Hannah relives a particularly bad pub encounter that left her fuming, and nearly finds herself setting up an IT service desk just to get the Patreon live. 

Sources used in this episode include: 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5580925/Pensioner-78-stabbed-burglar-bailed.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-48134851

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/may/02/hither-green-stabbing-of-burglar-was-lawful-killing-coroner-rules

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/richard-osborn-brooks-burglar-shrine-house-henry-vincent-london-neighbours-a8297756.html

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8985764/hither-green-richard-osborn-brooks-inquest/

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Also, follow us on Instagram @SinisterSouthPodcast for sneak peeks, behind-the-scenes content, and more cheeky banter, or www.sinistersouthpod.co.uk. Remember, every crime tells a story... and South is the best side of the river...

Produced and hosted by Hannah Williams & Rachel Baines
Mixed & edited by Purple Waves Sound (A.K.A Will)

Transcript

Richard Osborne-Brookes - V2

Hello. Hi. I'm Rachel.

I'm Hannah. And this is the Sinister South podcast. A musing on all of the troubles in South London.

That was, I think that may have been some of your finest work. Hold on. Don't know if the musings as such, but I think they're musing.

Alas, we move. Let's go. Exactly.

Well, full disclosure off the top, Trev Trev Trev's. Trev Trev Trev Trev Trev's. Oh, it's going to be one of them.

Oh, no. Yeah, we see musings already. No, we, this is the second time we're recording this because we had yet another episode where for some stupid reason, the laptop decided that it didn't want to play ball and just cut out loads of bits.

And normally, it seems to like behave itself and it seems to only like cut out bits from our... in our outro or whatever. Our jibber jabba. And most of the time, when I hear it, I'm like, oh, do you know what? It was probably a bad time.

Yeah. I didn't want to get sued anyway. So normally, it's fine.

But for this episode, it decided to cut out the crime. So we just had a lot of talk about all the preamble and then a lot of discussion around what happened at the end. But nothing about what actually happened in the case.

So this is our second time of recording it. So if we are slightly, if my shock and or self manufactured is because she has heard it. What? Oh, my gosh.

That happened. Shocking. Oh, dear.

How are you? Yeah, I'm all right. It is, again, full disclosure. It is a Monday evening.

And so, like, yeah. And it was like, I had a stupid long weekend. Yeah, you did.

You had a great weekend. It was a brilliant weekend, but it was a long one. And, oh, there you go.

I'm bringing it in. I told you, I would happy International Women's Day belated. Yeah.

The manufactured day. I love it. It's fine.

Do you know what? I was saying to you just before we hit record on this, like, I like the sentiment of it. I dislike the fact that people only talk about it on that one day and that women are only important for one day. But also, do you know what really irked me? And it really shouldn't have done.

Okay, come on. Right. So I was in the car.

We were going to swimming lessons on International Women's Day. I was listening to Radio X. I usually very much enjoy the output. I do enjoy their output.

And even on that day, I enjoyed it. But they were playing a montage of female-fronted rock bands for International Women's Day. Okay.

And they had an online playlist that was Women Who Rock, specifically for International Women's Day. And I was, first of all, I know you weren't agree with this, but they started the thing with whole. And I thought, well, Courtney, Courtney loves not necessarily a poster child for her.

Right. Well, she was a rock star. She was a rock star.

If you're asking a woman that was doing the job she was meant to do, then I guess she does the job. She does the job. Very true.

Very true. And I need to put my personal opinions on Miss Love to one side. She didn't shoot him.

Get over it. And it was also celebrity skin, which is like the only song that anyone ever plays. Yeah.

And to be fair, it's built up. Anyway. And then it was just like, it just kept talking about, oh yeah, it's the Women Who Rock.

The Women Who Rock. I'm like, you play female-fronted bands quite regularly. Why are we now? It's like, oh, we've got to package them all up.

There's a little place you could go on the website or for you with the lady wits. Listen, you go over there. This is for you.

Just for you. Aren't you lucky? And yeah, for some reason, it absolutely wound me right up. And the whole way to swimming, my daughters had to listen to me going.

But the thing is, you'll see that when you're older, it's just another way that the patriarchy control us. And my poor, long-suffering husband is just driving going, I'm just sorry. They're just trying to do a nice thing.

Well, for International Women's Day this year, I got attacked. I love how that is the way that you lead into this. Well, not attacked.

Attacked is a bit dramatic. Violated. Sounds even worse.

Well, yeah, I suppose. I was out with a friend in London Bridge in a pub. It was very busy.

There was lots of groups of men. There hardly any women in the pub were like, I don't know why I noticed. It wasn't because it was in National Women's Day.

Where are all my fellow women? Bitchis! Bitchis! This is the day that we're allowed out on mass. We voted on! But I just noticed it was like there was a shit ton of men and hardly any women in the pub. And it had been okay.

We'd been sat on one table at one point near the bar. We'd kind of scooted on the end of a group of men's table. And at one point we were laughing at something, probably me and hilarious.

And one man did lean over and went, do you mind? You're having too much fun? Oh! He was joking. And I did just bark back. It's International Women's Day.

Good on you. It was already just that very lads and lads atmosphere in the pub. So there was another table further back away from the bar in a bit of a quieter area, became available.

I spotted it out of the corner of my eye and I fucking lagged it, grabbed the table. And it had been fine. There had been other people, like me and my friends sat one side of it facing each other.

And then there'd been other people had perched on that. So can we sit here for a bit or whatever? Yeah. There'd been another group of blokes that had, right, three or four blokes that had sat there and then asked us to watch their pints while they went for a cigarette, stuff like that.

We were chatting away. It was all very fine and lovely. And then it got towards the end of the evening.

We had our last drink. It was like, well, they'd called last orders. So we'd ordered one more.

She lives near Luton. So I had to get like, that was her last train without having to do changes and all that. So like, we already had our eye on the clock.

Fine. So we're sitting there. The pub started to thin out and there were three boys.

I say boys. They looked very, very young. I divided them, if I could work at the bar.

And they, like one of them kept trying to get our attention. And the other two kind of had their backstress. And then there was a fourth man who was a lot considerably older, talking to one of them.

But like, you know, when people are drunk and they like invade your personal space and he had his arm around one of them and he was leaning in. And this, the boy that caught our eye, it was as if he was intentionally like, help us, get us out, like, help us. So he kind of came over and he was like, can I just stand here for a bit? And like, yeah, sure.

And he asked us, you know, you out for any reason or stuff like that. Fine. Like a bit annoying because we were in the middle of talking about something quite exciting that's happening for her.

I don't know if I'm allowed to say so I won't. But we were in the middle of talking about that and we were quite animated about it. And I'd been texting people like queries about things and blood, blah.

So it was a bit, yeah, a bit frustrating to be cut off. And I was taught to this boy that we didn't want to talk to anyway, but whatever. Then he was like, oh, you got to like, can you try and help get his attention? Like, get them over, get them over.

So I'm like, wait a minute, come here quick. And eventually, like, the other one comes over and then the third one turns to come over and the bloke kind of gets the message, the bloke leaves. No problem.

Didn't say anything to us. Like he's with some people. He left.

And the three of these boys then on our table. And what starts is like asking us, we asked us what we did. He asked, he then, one of them, who I will call like the ringleader, made this a huge point of like asking us what we earn.

Right. And like, when I wouldn't tell him he was being really drogate tree and all of this. Then we kind of a bit like, anyway, we'll get back to us, like, enjoy your drinks, boys, whatever.

Yeah. No, no, no, no. Come on.

Sorry. I didn't mean to offend. I just wouldn't like.

Didn't let him. Yeah. Like, so it's like, okay.

Right. Still. Like, don't know why I didn't just tell him to fuck off.

Yeah. But it was just didn't. Yeah.

It was like, yeah. I'm just appeasing them for whatever reason I've decided. So anyway, then they start talking about age.

How old, like, how old do you think we are? Like, guess our ages. And like, I don't know. 12.

I don't know. I don't know. But I kind of guessed around the ball, like around the right age.

Yeah. And they're like, oh, we'll guess you. We'll guess you.

And I was like, I'll just tell you if you want. No, no, no, no, no. It's guess.

So they guessed younger. I think you're right. 32.

No. I'm nearly 36. Yeah.

Well, I'll be 36 next month. And my friend's older than that. Yeah.

Said her. And like, I don't know. It was like something.

Snap. Not snaps. Something changed in them.

Mm. Where it was like, oh, well, you're like, that's really fucking old. Like, you're depressed.

You must be really depressed about how old you are and all of this. And like, kind of a bit like, oh, it's banter. It's only banter.

But also like, you've got no value to us. Yeah. Kind of.

I don't know. It was pointed. Yeah.

And it just felt aggressive. Anyway, they wouldn't let it go. It wouldn't fucking let it go.

And it got to the point where I became a bit. Shirty. But like, all right.

Like, get over it. Yeah. Move on.

Like, I'm going to talk to my friend now. Yeah. Go away.

Oh, you're not going to ask us what we do. Right? No, I don't care. No.

Like, oh, you've not even asked us our names. It's like, I don't want to know. I don't want to know.

I don't want to know what they are. Yeah. We're not.

We're not because I'm in front of the police report. And I got to say this, but it seemed like it was a bit of vulgar. And it was a lot of, I won't go.

I won't say exactly what they said to us. But it was very much like, Oh, you're really fucking old. I bet that everything's really fucking old.

It's all disgusting. Like on all of this shit, like, fucking, it was just horrible. To the point where I was a bit like, okay, this is too much.

I managed to kind of catch a bar maid's eye as she was clearing the table near us. And she kind of came over. Then as she walked towards me because I was like, I gave her a that was like, help.

As she came towards me, she caught the bouncer's eye, so they both kind of came, the bouncer came from behind them, but came to the table together. The boys started to be rude to her and then saw the bouncer was right there. So, oh, no, no, we're only joking, mate.

We're only joking, we're only joking. The bouncer gave them plastic cups and was like, look, I'm kicking out anyway. It's time to go.

No, no, no, no. Come on, you all smoke and you have seen you out there. Take your plastic cups, go outside, go and have a cigarette, go and get your train.

Leave the girls alone, like, whatever. So, they've gone out and the bouncers stood outside for a bit. We've kind of stopped talking to the bar made about getting our, like, oh, do you want plastic cups? And was like, no, can we just, like, we weren't the last people there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, we'll just finish them and then we're going to go, like, no, brother. So, kind of trying to finish the drinks and then it was time to leave.

We didn't, you know what I'm like. We hate being the last person in a pub. Like, feel it, it's so awkward.

Like, they're just trying to go home. So, as we go outside, the bouncers kind of come out behind us. Come down and say, they've come back round the corner.

Oh, we're fucking waiting for you. We've been waiting for you, like, waiting for you to come out, like, let's fucking carry on this chat then, shall we? And all this, I'm like, no. And as, like, I've gone to kind of go, no, we're leaving.

The bouncers grabbed my handbag was on my shoulder. Grabbed my hand, pulled me and my friend back into the pub. Shut the door in them.

As he's done that, they're throwing the plastic cups at us. God. Fucking livid, right? I was just like, what's your problem? Anyway, so then the bouncers brought us back in and sat us down and just said, look, you don't need to leave until they've gone.

You just stay here. The manager came out. The manager was like, why are these two girls standing in my pub? And the bouncers were closing time.

He was like, you need to leave. And he was like, no, no, no, no, like, they're going to wait, at least until I've seen them go, I'm going to go back outside and watch. So that they don't go around the corner again, they actually go to the station.

And the manager was like, the manager was great. The staff were brilliant. Two other bar staff came up to us and were like, they were giving a shit all night at the bar as well.

They were trying to order drinks on other people's tabs, trying to lie, say they were with groups. They actually did it to you. They really, at one point, like they pointed at you and said that they were with you.

And this, apparently, was before they even came over and joined our table. And it was only that I've got such a weird drink order that the bar made new, that we had just been asked to the whole time. I drink red wine with coconut, if anyone's wondering what my weird drink order is.

And it tends to get you memorised by bar staff. So yeah, so like, we're sat there, and as we're sat there, they're literally like pounding on the window of the pub, like, I've got a video of them. Like, jeering at us and fucking swearing at us.

Like, trying to bang on the window as well. And the bouncers literally have to come and put himself in between the boys and the pub. And it's been like, fuck off.

Yeah. Like, they're one of them. I was filming, and he's doing all like crew time dressed just swearing at me.

Then he just fully mooned me. Right. Just got his ass out.

Excellent. I was like, I've got a video of, like, literally of your entire face and now your entire ass. And you think, I'm not going to post that and be like, is this your son? Yeah, exactly.

You think I'm not in? Because they'd also let slip where they were from, right? And what train they'd be on, which would have been my, the last train, it would have been my train. Oh. So then that was a whole other kettle of fish.

Yeah, exactly. Oh, yeah. It was just like, it's interesting.

And I don't know, like, these things happen. Like, it's not the worst thing that's ever happened to me. No, but it has the man.

And I probably, I'm in touch with it, but it probably won't be the last worst thing. Like, the last bad thing. I've got anything to survive.

No, but it probably won't be the last altercation I have with a man in my life. I'm a woman. Yeah, existing.

Yeah. Like, I don't know why this one in particular got to me so intensely. Like, I was genuinely fucking, oh, I was genuinely fucking shaken by it.

Or fucking chugging. However you want to pronounce that. I think it's, to my mind, I think it's because it was almost relentless.

That was it. It was, yeah, it just didn't start. Just fuck off.

Yeah, to leave us alone. Like, if I've been rude, because I can be even kind of off-handed or not realizing I've been rude to people. I've done it before where I'm like, actually, that came across a lot, like, harsher than I meant it, or whatever.

And I know that sometimes, especially, like, even talk to my friends and family, like, I have to say, hang on, no, I'm not angry. It's just the pitch and tone of my voice sometimes, especially if I'm confused or if I'm like, so I often, like, with my brother, we'll end up kind of arguing with each other about a topic. And I'm like, hang on a minute.

No, I didn't, I wasn't being angry or aggressive about it. I just was confused and then my voice becomes quite authoritative. Yeah.

In those, when I'm processing at the same time, I don't regulate my tone. Yeah. So I can kind of understand it if that had happened, if we'd been in a conversation about something controversial or something.

But literally, like, I hadn't intentionally invited this in. No. Like, I was having a nice time, minding my own fucking business.

Yeah. I'd never have seen, I would, if you'd given me, like, before it happened, if you'd given me a line up of everyone in the pub, I wouldn't have been able to pick them out as men that were near me or anything like that. God's, like, I really fucking, it really shook me up.

And, like, where they live is one of, one of my many walking, like, I part of one of my walking routes going through that area. And I had to force myself to do it on Friday, just to, because it was Thursday night, yeah, I had to force myself to do that route on Friday, just to be like, you can't get in your own head about this and not go there again, in case you see them or they see you or whatever, like, but you go, I guarantee you, if you did see them again, one, they would probably not remember you because it will not have resonated in their mind. And two, they will, if they do see you and they're on their own, they will be running away like small, small children, because to be honest, it sounds like that's what they mean.

But no, I get you, mate, because there are, there are some things that, like, there's some small things that happen, or they're not small, but, like, things like... Microaggressions. And you just kind of like go, sometimes I actually think that those ones are do shake you up more than any, like, I mean, one I had years ago now, as well before I had children. So, but I was crossing the road on my way home from work, mind and mind business, crossing the road, going home.

And there was a car that stopped to let me cross. And this boy, and it was a boy, he must have been about 10, if he was a day out, like a boy, an actual boy, in the car with an older male, whether it was his dad, his uncle, whatever, I don't know, I don't know these people. But this 10 year old shouted out the window and he shouted something incredibly sexually aggressive.

And whoever the person was that was next to him, laughed repeatedly. The adult. Yeah, the adult laughed repeatedly, gave him a high five and then called me a slag as he drove past.

Wow. And I was like, hang on, what? Like, I'm literally crossing the road. Right.

Literally nothing to do with you. It's like you've purposely stopped so that you can encourage your younger person, whoever that person is to you, to disrespect and be that vulgar to a stranger, to a complete stranger just because I've got boobs. Like, it's fucking insane.

I do think potentially, because I've got quite a thick skin with this stuff, like it takes quite a lot to rattle me. Yeah, yeah. And I've always been that way, like I'm quite hardy unless you send me a nasty email, in which case I will cry.

I don't know if it was because there was like an immediate validation of it because the bouncer, the bar staff, the manager, like, because they were, especially the bouncer, who acted brilliantly and really did like take his job very seriously in that moment, as far as I'm concerned. And actually the manager asked me that is it like, and also another the man, I don't know if it was the manager, if he sent someone because I didn't see him again, but apparently someone followed them to the station to make sure they actually didn't come back. Nice.

But yeah, I don't know if it was because immediately other people or people in authority were like, you are right. This is where you are, you were, you were unsafe. Yeah.

And we've taken steps to protect you that it's made me go, Oh, fuck, I needed protecting in that moment, like, or, yeah, or what, like, because I couldn't. Again, is it the throwing of the things as well? It's a step up from the view of actual, aggressive acts. And especially like the fact you hid around a corner, they were waiting for you, waiting for us to come out.

Right. It's a bounce hadn't been there. Or if like, if I am in plastic cups, would you have thrown glass at me? Like what? Or if you, if the bounce hadn't been there and I couldn't get back into the pub, yeah, what would have happened next? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's, yeah, I was just trying to fucking exist. I had cowboy boots on. It was not in the mood.

Oh, mate, I'm really sorry that that happened to you, and especially with International Women's Day, so close by. My favourite thing about it is that I got home and drunkardly recorded, not even a voice note, I found the voice, the voice memo recorder on iPhone and recorded you a 25 minute debrief about the whole scenario. What really annoyed me though, was because I woke up, saw it and was like, holy fuck, what is, okay, let's settle in.

So I, I sat there, started to play it. And then every time you got to a point in the story where I'm like, fuck, my children would walk in and just like, well, do you need to be at school? Yes, I mean, we'll wait a few to take us. Fucks like, so yeah, it took me a long time to actually get to listen to my 25 minute forecast.

I do think as well in my drunken brain that I suggested, instead of doing a case next week, let's just both do a whole hour talking about all the things that men have done to us. You did, you did. Thinking about that now, those men might listen to this.

If you are listening, do you know what? Go and have a very long hard look at yourself. Or if you're listening and you think, was that me? Now, let's just think back over our behaviours. Yeah.

And it's healthy to wonder if it was you. Have a look at everything, not specifically to me or age. Yeah, yeah.

But have a look at the behaviour or the things you might have said or the ways you might have acted to women in your life and wonder if you need to take some time. Oh, she's so wise. She's so I love giving my homework.

I love it. I love it. Oh, dear.

But yeah, that was a horrible mate. And I'm really sorry that happened to you. Like, I might like it, but I won't be going back to that pub in.

And it wasn't that pub's fault. No, but these people, they always like to ruin things. Oh, ma, they do.

It is bloody trauma. Oh, dear. Anyway, so this leads us in quite nicely.

Have you ever been scared? Yeah. At least when we're scared, we don't do this. Yeah, so I will when I can get Hannah's computer to play ball.

Here we go. I'm going to tell you a story and I'm going to listen to it. Yeah, it's going to be good.

It's going to be good. So today we are talking about a slightly different story for us. It's more there is murder.

Don't worry. It's not another. Oh, I'm sorry, mum.

It's not another free Ben Toss pies. It's fun, but it's the crime while the crime itself is horrible. It's more about the conversation that it sparked around it.

That is what I find quite interesting here. So if we all settled in, the sources as per usual will be in the show notes. And I'll crack on.

So on a quiet April night in 2018, Richard Osborne Brooks and his wife, Maureen, were fast asleep in their home on South Park, Crescent, and hit the green, South East London. At around midnight, two masked intruders forced their way into the residence, shattering the piece of the elderly couple's home. One of the intruders, Henry Vincent, was a 37 year old man armed with a screwdriver, and he confronted Richard demanding money.

Standing face to face with a man who threatened his life, 78 year old Richard was forced into a terrifying decision, fearing for his life and that of his wife, he grabbed a knife in a desperate attempt to defend them. When Vincent, who was a known career criminal, advanced on him, a struggle broke out, which left Vincent fatally wounded. The shock of that night rippled far beyond to the green, sparking a fierce debate across the UK on the right of homeowners to defend themselves.

Richard, initially arrested on suspicion of murder, was thrust into the public eye, as supporters argued his actions were justified in the face of such an immediate threat. Tensions flared as Vincent's family and supporters set up makeshift tributes outside of Richard's home, leading to heated exchanges with locals who saw the memorials as a provocation. What began as a terrifying home invasion soon evolved into a national conversation about self-defense, justice and the legal boundaries around protecting one's home.

So, yeah, I'll get into who Richard and Maureen Osborne Brooks are in a moment, but I just wanted to kind of bring it up that for any of our listeners who are not from the UK and we weirdly have quite a few of you, the UK doesn't necessarily have the same legal standing around thing, that we don't have a stand your ground law or like Castle Doctrine. We have it in some regards, but not in the same way as some states in America do or other countries, I don't know where else might have it, but it doesn't really exist here, which is why this was such a kind of contentious topic. So that's just a little bit of context for you.

Richard Osborne Brooks and Maureen Osborne Brooks were a quiet, unassuming couple. Who lived a very kind of simple, standard life that was defined by routine and simplicity. Richard was a former office manager at the RAC in Croydon and was known by his colleagues as a gentle and intelligent man who brought calm and stability to his work.

He'd spent his career in a stable role, put his family first and he'd ended up retiring and he just had a kind of nice, slow, peaceful existence at home. Maureen, his lifelong partner, had always been with him and they had a really lovely bold accounts relationship and they had sort of like lots of close friends. They were seen around the neighbourhood quite a lot.

They would go to all the neighbourhood gatherings, strip of parties, definitely part of the community. However, in recent years before this incident took place, Maureen's health had declined quite significantly. She was suffering from dementia.

So it meant that Richard ended up changing his role at home and he became very much her caregiver. And he would kind of do, he'd structure his whole day around whatever Maureen needed. Neighbours said that he was dignified and polite.

He was always ready to stop for a friendly chat or lend a hand. But they, the couple themselves, when they were together, they kind of kept themselves to themselves in late years, just because of Maureen's condition. But yeah, lots of people said that they were nice, just normal people.

So on April the 4th of 2018, as I said, Richard and Maureen were asleep in their home when Henry Vincent, who was 37 and an accomplice, a man named Billy Jeeves, who was 28, broke into their home. Upon hearing sounds downstairs, Richard awoke to find himself face to face with both men. One of them Vincent held a screwdriver and demanded money and jewelry and threatened to harm Mr. Osbourne Brooks if he resisted.

Oh my gosh, how terrifying. Yeah, he imagined you'd just wake up. Absolutely fucking terrifying.

So for Richard, the shock and terror were overwhelming. And he said that he just, the weight of his responsibility, not just for himself, but also for his elder frail wife, was kind of upon him. And she, he saw her as being very vulnerable and defenseless.

Yeah. In the whole situation, as you would, as you would, yeah. Backed into the kitchen with no clear escape, Richard grabbed the largest knife you could find in the hopes of scaring the men off.

Jeeves, upon seeing Richard armed, quickly fled through the front door, leaving Vincent behind. Vincent wielded his screwdriver and moved forward, warning Richard to stay out of his way. A chaotic struggle followed, and as Vincent advanced on Mr. Osbourne Brooks, Mr. Osbourne Brooks extended the knife in self-defense and the blade struck Henry Vincent in the chest.

Oh, God. He staggered out of the house. He was bleeding very heavily and he collapsed nearby on further green road.

Billy Jeeves, the accomplice, did attempt to help him escape by trying to drag him towards their getaway vehicle, which was a white voxel astrovan that had been parked nearby, and witnesses at the time reported seeing Jeeves desperately trying to get Vincent into the van. However, when it became clear that Vincent was too severely injured to move on his own, Billy Jeeves abandoned the attempt and fled the scene alone. Witness Gordon Williams, who was a local resident nearby to further green road, said that he heard moaning and groaning, and he said that there was a guy who looked up to my window and saw me, and when he saw me, he ran back into the van and just drove off.

Mr. Williams' wife also reported hearing the clang of metal as Jeeves threw an object out of the van before speeding off, but we don't know what that was. Oh, OK. Police were called to the scene at around 1245 a.m. responding to reports of a burglary and an injured person.

Now, I couldn't find out for definite who had reported the crime. But there were multiple sources I read that said it was Mr. Osbornebrook. So it was OK, Richard Osbornebrooks, but I couldn't.

You can verify that. Exactly. That's what we think.

Yeah. So when police arrived, they found Henry Vincent collapsed on further green road, where he later succumbed to his injuries, despite their best efforts to save him. Mr. Osbornebrooks was subsequently taken into custody for questioning on suspicion of murder.

This arrest, although standard in cases where a person has started, was met with public outcry, because many people saw Mr. Osbornebrooks as a man who had simply acted in self-defense. So that's what happened. And now I want to talk to you about who Henry Vincent was, because I think that's important.

Yeah. This is where it starts to get a little bit tricky for me, because I'm desperately trying to keep my own thoughts and feelings out of the storytelling, mainly because they flip-flop continuously. But this is this is what I'm about to read is what I could find about this man.

So it's not coloured by my own. Yeah, it's very factual. Just don't come for me.

So Henry Vincent was, by many accounts, a man that had been shaped by a life of crime. He was very well known to police. He was said to be a persistent, organised and unrepentant criminal who came from a family with a very long history of praying on vulnerable people.

And he was said to have been someone who, despite having a family and responsibilities, had decided that he was, that's just what he was going to do. It just had a life of crime. He was just, yeah, just a criminal.

He had been previously jailed for multiple crimes, most notably when he was imprisoned as part of a family gang. So it was his family. These crimes ranged from bogus repair schemes to outright fraud with Vincent and his family, often manipulating elderly homeowners into handing over their life savings for unnecessary or fake repairs.

It was a lucrative and highly exploitative operation. And his involvement ultimately saw him named on Kent Police's Most Wanted list. Growing up in a family with a criminal background, Vincent became entangled in illegal schemes at a young age.

His dad and several of his uncles had also been involved in these scams and they formed a network that was targeting the most vulnerable members of society. One of the well known schemes that involved the family was when they were found to be escorting elderly victims to the bank, where they would watch as these people withdrew large sums of cash, only to them pocketing themselves. And in one, one particularly egregious case, Vincent and his father convinced an 81 year old man to pay them over 72,000 pounds to replace a single roof tile, which actually cost just £50.

Yeah. And for that, Vincent received a six year prison sentence. God.

In 2003, members of his family were also jailed for a total of almost 29 years at Croydon Crown Court, after they conned pensioners out of 448,180 pounds. Oh, it's horrible. Vincent was jailed for four and a half years for this particular crime.

And his father, Henry Charles Vincent, senior, was also in prison for five and a half years. Henry Vincent Junior was also hunted by detectives after a distraction burglary, in which a man in his seventies was targeted in Farningham Kent in November of 2017. In that incident, a crying woman came to the front door of the elderly victim and said she had been attacked.

But when the woman left the house, the elderly man discovered his front door had been left open and a jewelry box containing valuables had been stolen. Oh, that's horrific. That's really horrible.

It's not, it's not nice. That's really horrible. So despite these crimes, those close to him described him very differently.

To his family, he was a gentle giant and a father of four who they claimed had simply fallen in with the wrong crowd. His dad, apparently. He had once been a promising boxer and was remembered by his family as someone who, at least in his personal life, was kind hearted.

His relatives argued that he didn't deserve to die for his crimes, emphasising his role as a father, son and brother. And I think we can all agree with that. However, for the broader public and those who had witnessed his actions first hand, this side of Vincent remained overshadowed by his criminal record and the emotional toll his actions took on his victims.

Vincent's accomplice, whose identity remains less documented, shared a similar background in crime. Reports suggest he was also armed on the night of the burglary. And like Vincent had a history of using deception and intimidation.

So during the heavy the green break in, which was the confrontation with Richard was born Brooks, Billy Jeeves, he fled in the van and kind of like tried to distance himself from it almost instantly. The moment he saw that there was a this is escalated further than it was meant to. So he tried to kind of completely distance himself and he sped off in the guessaway van and police then launched a manhunt to locate him, which they did do, but it took a few days, so I'll get to him in a minute.

So when police arrived at the scene, they were responding to reports of a burglary and an injured person. Officers found the aftermath of a chaotic break in at the Osborne Brooks home. And Vincent was found about 250 yards away from their house.

Emergency medical teams attempted to save Vincent's life. Paramedics and police worked to stabilise him, reportedly stripping off his clothing to stem the bleeding, but despite their efforts, his injuries were too severe and he was pronounced dead shortly after 330 in a central London hospital. Meanwhile, police secured the Osborne Brooks property as a crime scene and they set up a cordon around the house and the surrounding area and around the point where Mr Vincent was found and they began searching for evidence that could have explained what had happened and that included looking for Billy Jeeves.

Yeah, they extended the cordon beyond the immediate area and combed through grains, back gardens, nearby streets, looking for any discarded evidence, but they couldn't find any inside the home. Officers took statements from Richard, who was still very shaken from the confrontation, as you would expect, and he was taken into custody on suspicion of murder for questioning about the incident. So, OK, the arrest sparked an outpouring of public support.

I remember when this happened and it was genuinely the conversation around whether or not he should have been. You can, you can understand, I think, I don't know, again, I'm not sure, as the person reacting to the story, not telling the story, I don't know, this part of me kind of wants to give as we go through, give my opinion as, because I know it will flip flop. It's fine, I'm happy to do that because I'm with you.

Right, this second, I understand completely, well, no, I don't, thankfully, understand completely the absolute terror and fear that Richard must have been in the midst of. And by all accounts, it doesn't sound like Vincent was an upstanding member of the community who wouldn't have been intimidating. Yeah.

I think going in knowing, well, going in to commit a crime like that, going into someone's home in the middle of the night, you're not walking in thinking, like, we'll just be really quiet. Yeah, yeah, they won't notice. Yeah, they won't mind kind of like, you know what you're doing.

Yeah. Do I think someone should have died? It's an escalation, isn't it? But it is at the same time, how do you say like, if you're fearing for your life and there's someone that's coming to your home in the middle of the night and your wife's upstairs and she's got to mentor and you're terrified. You are like, oh, it's fight, flight or freeze, right? And he's thought, yeah.

And that's kind of almost like biological. Yeah. Reaction to the scenario that he's in.

Yeah. It is, you will flip flop because I did about 86 times when I was researching this. So I can understand why people, why they were such an out.

Yeah. Why? And exactly as you say, it's like, the fact is that, you know, your home is where you if we disregard all the horrific, I mean, we'll just, yeah, we'll just disregard domestic abuse in a nutshell, disregard that domestic violence, but what I mean is for the majority of what a privileged majority, your home is your safe place. It's just, it's, it's where in a sanctum.

It's your, it's where you go. You're comfortable, you're happy, you're safe. And when somebody think someone violates that space, the, the reaction to kind of act in a way that potentially if you were out on the street would be a very different response, I think it's just, it is, it is that protection.

It is fight, flight or freeze. It is very much like, well, hang on. This is my space.

You're not meant to be here. And I think there is almost a part of our lizard brain that kicks in at that point. Like, hang on, you're a saber to the tiger and you're not meant to be in my cave.

Fuck off. Like it's, it's that sort of thing. But yeah.

So the arrest sparked an outpouring of public support with many arguing that Richard Osborne Brooks had merely defended himself and his wife. And eventually after reviewing the evidence and circumstances surrounding the incident, police released him without charge. The next morning, Billy Jeeves became subject of a manhunt led by the Metropolitan Police and the investigation tracked his movements and his white fox or astrovan, which was later found abandoned and burnt out in Orpington.

Despite extensive efforts to locate him, Jeeves managed to evade capture for several days, keeping a low profile and using his familiarity with law enforcement tactics to stay hidden. Okay. On April the 20th, 2018, police final is birthday.

Hitler's birthday. It's the day before mine. That's why I know that I had the same birthday as the queen.

Yeah, the day after Hitler. Yeah, no, it makes sense now, doesn't it? It also makes sense for the other person I know who's got the same birthday. Yeah.

On April the 20th, 2018, police finally apprehended Billy Jeeves. However, after questioning, he was released without charge due to insufficient evidence linking him directly to the events inside the Osborne Brooks home. His release frustrated some members of the public who believed that he bore responsibility for his involvement in the burglary.

Yeah. And in Vincent's subsequent death, however, police continued to keep Jeeves under watch and his arrest was kind of like the turning point in the narrative of this case. But it also shows that there is a real difficulty that the police have and that the crown prosecution service have.

I always have to say crown prosecution because I say CPS. Well, no, because in America, CPS is child protective. So of course, so I always get like when I listen to cases, when they talk about CPS and I'm like, why were they getting involved? Why are they taking children away? But anyway, the difficulty that the crown prosecution service has on kind of tiring people with the same brush, if that makes sense.

So it's like they've got absolutely no direct evidence that links Jeeves to the confrontation or the injury. And they also don't have evidence to say like they know that he was in the house, but they have no evidence to say that he was the one who broke in. Right.

They've got no evidence to say. And the fact that he left, yeah, means that actually they don't see him as culpable because we don't in this country have the law that they have. And I'm going to absolutely get this wrong.

An American listeners, please correct me. But there's certain states, I think, in the US where if you are, if you're engaged in a crime and someone, it's like a giant enterprise or whatever. That sort of thing.

Yeah. But it's basically like if so, for example, if you're the getaway driver at a burglary or you go to rubber bank, you're the getaway driver. You've not actually gone into the bank.

You've not had a gun. You've not done any of that. You're just sitting in your car outside.

Someone gets shocked during the enacting of the burglary and they die. You can you are charged as if you were inside the bank holding the gun, even though you weren't because you were still involved in the crime that led to that death. Now we don't have that sort of law over here.

So even though Billy Jeeves, I don't know that he ever admitted or anything like that. But I think that he could like Richard Osborne Brooks could have identified him as being in the house. Yeah, he didn't.

He's not done anything in terms of he's not harmed anyone. He's not they can't found evidence to say that he was the one who broke in. Actually, yeah, actually did the commission of the crime.

He was basically for what the evidence they had pointed him as a bystander. Exactly. We know he wasn't, but that's the situation there in the public overwhelmingly supported Richard Osborne Brooks and many saw him as a victim of unfortunate circumstances who had acted out of sheer necessity.

The hashtag free Richard Osborne Brooks, trended on social media. And he got a lot of agreement from people in the US, where as I've hinted at laws, protecting homeowners tend to be slightly more robust than they are in the UK. Neighbors and community members expressed strong support for him.

Adam Lake, who was a local resident, stated he doesn't deserve to be punished for defending himself and the neighbors that I've spoken to all agree that the priority needs to be to support him after everything that he's been through. Tony guest, a former colleague described Mr Osborne Brooks as gentle and very intelligent, adding he was never rowing or shouting at people. He was a very calm person.

And neighbor Nick Mayat said he's a lovely old man. He cares for his wife, who I think has dementia. He's a nice man, nice to talk to.

I hope the law sees sense and lets him off. I don't think it's right that he's been arrested. OK, Mr Osborne Brooks was released from a police station near his home and hit the green pending an investigation.

As I said, detectives were quite vigorous in looking for evidence. And Muio Ojo, who lived next door to the elderly couple, said that he had he told the police that he'd heard a struggle between the pensioner and the burglar, saying I heard the shouts of the struggle. There were a number of voices, some screams, but I couldn't make out the words.

That kitchen is very small. He wouldn't have had the opportunity to run. He's an old man, but it's fight or flight.

It's unfortunate that he was put into that kind of situation. Mr Osborne Brooks's cousin, Zoe Brooks, welcome to news that he'd been freed and noted the widespread support that he had received. She told the evening standard.

Of course, everyone is shocked. He has a lot of support. His release is great news, but we know about as much as you at the moment.

OK, a crowd funding page was set up to pay for any legal costs that Mr Osborne Brooks may have faced in the future. And it raised more than £2,000 in its first four hours. Gemma Sargent from nearby Chiselhurst started the fund and she wrote the following on the page is a little bit lengthy one moment.

Given the recent burglaries in the area, many people are outraged by this. People should be entitled to protect themselves and the increase in crime with no resolution is just not good enough. More than 500 people have signed this petition calling for a better treatment for those who defend themselves against burglars.

And the petition itself then states, I do not think that 78 year old man who was burgled and held up with a screwdriver at his home in here, the Green London should be arrested or charged with murder. A person should have the right to defend themselves, their belongings and their home had the burglars harmed him physically. All they would have been given was a slap on the wrist.

When were the criminalization of victims of crime who defend themselves? Stop. So there's a lot of emotion flying around. There's a lot of, yeah, there's a lot of and you can get it.

Like you said it earlier, someone coming into your home is fucking horrible. Yeah, yeah, 100%. So following, I have to stop saying so, following Henry Vincent's death, his family and supporters, there were tension seems to be like too lighter were to write.

So it all started because Henry's family, they created a makeshift memorial outside the Osborne Brooks home on South Park Crescent. They put flowers, cards, balloons on the fence opposite the Osborne Brooks house. OK.

And they saw it as a way to mourn his loss and honour his memory. And you kind of go like, yeah, well, like if someone dies in a road car, a road car, a road car accident from the 50s now. And if someone dies in a road traffic accident, the site of the crash is usually where the memorial is, right? Like there's flowers or there's whatever there.

So I can kind of understand it's this is a, this whole case is antagonistic. Right. Yeah.

But so I can understand the location, the choice of location being seen as, yeah. It's all as inappropriate. It's almost a little bit like, well, if they'd done it, if it was actually closer to where he had died.

So neither 250 yards away or whatever, then it kind of almost feels like that would be less antagonistic. Yeah. But I don't, I don't know.

But at the same time, why wouldn't why don't they have the right to do that when other people in other scenarios do 100% of their family member died? It's yeah. And it's and it's even if that family member was doing something wrong, which I believe he was, it is that question of, you know, they still don't, they're still dead. Brother, their son, their dad, they're like, a man is still dead.

The man has still lost his life. And it's his family have a right to be upset about that. Of course.

They can be angry at him for what he was doing. Yeah. Well, doesn't stop doing two wrongs don't make a right.

Right. Like, yeah, but it's a bit like the episode we did at Christmas, where we had the, I can't remember his name now, but the Swedish guy who was shot outside his house. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it was later discovered that like he was involved in, he was the music producer, right? Yeah, but he was also a massive drug dealer. Massive drug kingpin. Yeah.

And that was when our girl, Bobbi Shema, comes back and she's basically says like, yes, he was a drug dealer, but he was also a father and a husband and a man who was loved. And that doesn't just because he was just because he was doing something wrong, doesn't mean that his life is less valuable. Exactly.

And it also doesn't give the person the right to, we don't live in a vigilante state. We don't have the death penalty. We don't get killed for doing something wrong.

No, you get punished. You get punished. Absolutely fair.

Yeah, but you don't lose your life over it. Yeah. So that's kind of where this, this all kind of gets very difficult.

So yeah, they put this memorial up on the fence opposite the house. However, local residents viewed the memorials as provocative and insensitive, given the nature of the crime and the impact that the breaking had had had on the elderly, I was born Brooks couple. The memorial was repeatedly dismantled by local residents who felt it was inappropriate to honour someone who had attempted a home invasion.

Many neighbours saw the memorial as an, I quote, an insult to Osborne Brooks and the broader community who felt sympathy for the pensioner and believed that he'd acted in self-defence. Some neighbours even publicly tore down the flowers and I'll put a photo of one of those up because it went, it did the rounds describing the attributes as disrespectful, given the circumstances of Vincent's death. It's difficult, even that.

Yes, case, I don't know the right answer. Yeah, it's hard. As the dispute escalated, the met police were called in to maintain order and to prevent any escalation of hostilities.

They requested that both sides respect each other's perspectives, asking Vincent's family to grieve in a way that would not disrupt or upset the local community, but also urging residents to allow the family to express their grief, respectively. I mean, it's, you're between a rock and a hard place. Yeah, you really are.

You're really fucking hard. So despite police presence, tensions did persist as the memorial was taken down and reinstalled multiple times. Police ended up liaising with Lewisham Council to monitor the situation and they deployed mounted patrols to reassure residents and emphasise that the community's safety was a priority.

Do you want my story about an anti-police officer? You can do your story about the anti-police officer. It's not funny. I mean, it is.

So actually not far from where this crime was might be in the same mounted police officers. Potentially. I was stuck in traffic by the junction of where that road to the green and brown hill broke me for anyone that's local by the antique shop that always had the big Apache Indian statue thing near tuning.

Yes, yeah, which for some reason is where I thought my uncle worked for a few years when I was when I was little. That's where uncle Bill works. He never worked there in his life.

I don't know what something in my young child's brain just like, that's where my uncle Bill works. Excellent. Nope.

Anyway, I was stuck in traffic there and I saw a horrific accident. There was a motorbike coming and like doing everything right and a woman in a car. Well, I don't actually know if it was a woman to be honest.

I don't know why I said that until after women's day. But this one, this person obviously got bored of waiting in the traffic and tried to go to cut out of the line of traffic and then literally go right round. So round the traffic like iron to go straight over.

And it was bad traffic. But as she keeps saying she, sorry, as this person pulled out, they hit the cycle, the motorbike causing a horrible accident. I mean, it was fucking horrific.

We all got out. Like everyone, someone was holding his neck. Like he was screaming, he ended up losing a leg.

Like I'm fucking horrible. But because it was me and I am who I am, got nominated to be the person that rang 999 because your love of calling 999 has very trigger. Happy with the old 999.

We all know it. Well known it was a longer number. I'd have it on speed dial, but I've got that down.

Yeah. Nice. I can do that really quick.

So anyway, I was on the phone reporting what had happened, requesting police and an ambulance and all that. And like some of the other drivers have got a partial number plate of the car, because it had sped off and left the scene. God.

And like what color it was. And there was it was funny how prospective changes so quickly, like two of us thought it was blue. Once someone thought it was gray.

Yeah. Anyway, they're like keeping people there if they had dash cams and stuff like that, blood, blood, blood. Anyway, as I'm talking to the, on this and lunch dispatch, there we go.

And they're like going through what we should do and giving advice to holding his headstone and all that shit. They were like, right, we've got people coming, but the traffic is terrible. So the police car, it's getting to you.

But and as they said that, I heard clip, clip, clip, clip, and down the road came to mountain police officers. And I was like, there's police here on horse. On horse on horse.

They are on horse. Sorry. I'm very, very love on horse.

It's like that viral thing from that radio station. I got purse anyway, sorry, focus on. So I said to the dispatcher was like, do I tell them? She was like, yeah, yeah, look, there's getting officer on scene.

They'll know what to do to preserve evidence, blood, blood, and they might be able to do first aid or whatever. So anyway, I've motioned to these police officers. And the horse is a fucking huge, right? They are massive.

And I'm shouting up at this police officer. He's shouting down at me and he's like, oh, hang on a minute. Hang on a minute.

I'll dismount. So the other is given the reins to the other officer who's staying on their horse and his swung his leg and he the horse is so high and he wasn't a particularly tall police officer, he couldn't get down. So his legs, he was like, his body was over.

So his tummy was on the saddle, like head one side of the horse, legs, the other. And his legs are just flapping about. Like, oh, like it was too far a drop.

So I ended up having to come here and hold this man's pelvis, like, or like, hold his waist to try and like help him down off this horse. And you know, it's like one of those moments where you have an outer body experience. You're like, I was just trying to go to Zumba, like, what's going on? How am I ended up in this position where I'm holding police officers? How am I lifting a police officer off a horse right now? Like, that's just a quiet goal from South London, man.

Like, man handling an officer off a horse. Anyway, that's my that's my mounted police officer story story story. I like the way you tell it is brilliant.

I'm just very upset. It's not a visual medium. So you can't do an example of the legs.

Yeah. So there were there were mounted police at this juncture. Um, yeah, so they were there to reassure residents of South Park Crescent and they're kind of trying to show that the community's safety was their priority, despite everything else that was going on.

But the tensions reached a cushion during Henry Vincent's funeral. Yeah, I can imagine. Now, Henry Vincent's family wanted to drive the funeral procession procession through South Park Crescent.

Oh, but residents were vehemently against it. They were angered by the audacity and apparently blocked the road in order to prevent the car from driving down South Park Crescent. Now, from what I could tell, and I have looked at maps, there is no reason for the procession to go down South Park Crescent.

They were literally doing it to. And like, OK, like we said, about road traffic, accidents, you do have a memorial at the site normally, but I don't know necessarily of I've not heard necessarily of a funeral procession passing. No, the place of no of a death.

No, I mean, it might be. I mean, I could I could almost like, if it was on route to the crime, I still don't think you do. Like I've just like, even if so, like normally a procession would go from the last place the person lived.

And then potentially passed a pub they always drank or something like that, but not where you're going to have the site of where they died. Yeah, yeah, you know, just even thinking in my own world, when we had my great granny, like she died in a care home, but we did it from her from her flat and then went to the crematorium, like we didn't or went to the church, but like didn't go past the care home. Yeah, yeah, it's true.

It's true. I mean, yeah, but they wanted to do this. That feels like that's just antagonistic to me.

Yeah, I feel differently about that to them to the memorial. The memorial, I kind of understand. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for local residents blocked the road to prevent it.

There was a huge police presence during the funeral and they had offices on foot on horseback. And there was also a helicopter that was dispatched to monitor the procession and it did ultimately turn contentious. And I will put some of the photos up on the No, from for anyone.

No, it's really not reports emerged of mourners shouting at bystanders, hurling objects from the cars and this obviously further strained relations between the family and the community. So for residents of here the green, the memorial and subsequent actions taken by Vincent's family felt like an attempt to intimidate the community and to glorify someone who had contributed to neighbourhood unrest. Some neighbours began implementing additional security measures such as installing surveillance cameras or securing their properties as a response to both the break-in and the aftermath.

They were worried about their own safety and the potential for further incidents involving other members of Vincent's network. The Vincent family was openly disheartened and dissatisfied with the inquest's outcome, which we'll talk about in a second, which ruled Henry's death as a lawful killing. To them they saw Henry Vincent as a family member that was loving and caring and they felt that the circumstances of his death did not justify the outcome, which I think we've already kind of agreed with.

They expressed their perspective that Henry Vincent didn't deserve to die as a result of the burglary describing him as a father, brother and son and his sister Rosie Vincent voiced this sentiment at the inquest stating that no one deserved to die and expressing frustration with the characterisation of her brother as a violent threat. She described him as not a violent person and felt that his death had been sensationalised in a way that ultimately dehumanised him. I can see that.

Yep, this is what I can understand that perspective. So the Vincent family believed that Richard Osborne Brooks's actions were disproportionate and they viewed Henry's death as preventable. They argued that while Henry had committed a crime, they felt that the fatal injury was a response that had exceeded necessary force.

So I'm going to talk a bit about the inquest now because this talks about the force and like the force makes a sound like I'm talking about Star Wars, but they've been talking about moderate force and necessary force and stuff. So senior coroner Andrew Harris ruled that Mr. Osborne Brooks had used moderate force to protect his home and his elderly wife Maureen. He added that Vincent who had had, so Henry Vincent had had traces of heroin and cocaine in his system at the time of his death and he stated that this was a man who could have left the house without any confrontation taking place at any point.

And he actually kind of like references the fact that Jeeves did that exact just left in an audio recording played to the court. Now this this is where it kind of this bit feels a bit odd to me. So they played a an audio recording of Mr. Osborne Brooks during his questioning with place and he says and I quote, I said to them, I have to get my heart medication out of the drawer.

He let me go and I went over and grabbed that knife out of the knife block and I threatened him with it and he ran out through the front door. This is him talking about Billy Jeeves. When he got to the porch he picked up our green box, the recycling box and tried to hit me with it.

He shut the door and yelled at his mate, who was upstairs, get out quickly, he's got a knife. The man came running down the stairs and he had a sharp implement in his hand which turned out to be the screwdriver. He said come near me and I'll stick you and I said well mine's bigger than yours and I stabbed him.

It went in about four inches. So that feels different. Yeah, he also says at the start of it that essentially he was like, he tells officers that he had been cornered by one of the men that turned out to be Billy Jeeves and then and where he'd said that he needed his heart medication, it was him tricking him into allowing him to go and get an eye.

So it feels a bit, this is where it gets really difficult. If it wasn't already beforehand. Mr. Osborne Brooks appeared via video link from behind a screen due to security fears at the inquest and he told police that he had not wanted to hurt the burglar, only threatened him.

He added, I thought he would look at the size of my knife, see it was bigger than his implement and would take the opportunity to run out of the front door. My intention was only to get him out of the house and away from my wife. He said that he felt terrified and helpless and said if they still continue to think that we had money in the house, they might do something to her to make me give it up.

But we didn't have any money in the house, but they might do something to her anyway. So yes, the wording that he uses about the actual instant itself is very questionable. But then the fear that he feels is to me, I think is almost palpable.

Yeah, but yeah, it's that whole thing about intent, isn't it? Again, he had the facility or he had the wherewithal around him to make exact decisions to trick someone so that he could arm himself. Feels like he could have also made the decision to say take what you want and just go because things are replaceable or from the way he described, I'm bearing my knees are his words, from the way he describes it, Vincent's coming down the stairs, he's not. So Vincent comes down the stairs, comes into the kitchen where he is, that's where he's got the screwdriver and that's where he says, because Vincent does threaten him as well.

Yeah, but at that point, the other side of it is that we've only got Osborne Brooks's words for what happened. So anyway, this is tricky. It's really tricky.

I'm going to quote Bluey now, it's very trifical. Corinna Mr Harris told the court, I'm satisfied that Mr Osborne Brooks did pick up the knife deliberately and the reason given was to tell the intruders to go away after the two had threatened his wife and asked for money and one of them had gone into a cabinet upstairs to secure some valuables. The householder insists that there was no intention to harm.

He indicated surprise that he had actually stabbed the victim. He was a rational sensible man. He must have known and recognize the risk of death of holding a sharp knife in the way he did.

He had however no intention to use it. It would be described as a reflexive action so that death wasn't in mind. He explained to officers the way his arm went forward in a positive manner and said that he had stabbed him although the man was coming forward.

Okay, the use of moderate force would seem to me to be proportionate. He clearly didn't know the gentleman who was in his house. It was hard to judge what that man would do.

It seems to me the combination of unpredictability and fear in a stressful situation are factors that need to be taken into account when considering the proportionality of the force that was used. So it's a very long-winded way of saying he held a knife in front of him. They didn't put Vincent off enough.

No, and he's gone like that to go fuck off, basically. He's pushed it forward but it's not in an attacking motion. It's a defensive motion and that they think that the stress of the situation of having someone that you don't know in your house, when you're 78 and all the other mitigating factors, they deemed it.

Yeah, I'm back on the side again now. Yeah, we're going to get Whiplash today. I know, I know.

So a statement issued by Mr. Osborne Brooks' legal team after the decision was handed down said that he nevertheless regrets Mr. Henry Vincent's loss of life in what were tragic circumstances. The statement added, many families have been devastated by these events particularly those left looking after Mr. Vincent's young children. So I thought this is, you know, we've touched on the whole castle doctrine and stand your ground floor and stuff in the States.

So I wanted to just kind of bring it back a little bit to the UK has a bit of a history with this sort of crime, not as much as the US but I thought it was interesting to look at another case, which may make you think slightly differently about the old case. Oh, here we go. So other famous home intruder cases and this is a bit of a side quest, but bear with me.

So in the UK, one of the most famous and controversial cases involving a homeowner killing an intruder was that of Tony Martin, a Norfolk farmer who shot and killed 16 year old Fred Barris during a break in at his isolated farmhouse in August of 1999. Interestingly, Tony Martin died last year. Oh, there you go.

Martin lived alone at Bleak House, which is quite fitting. His farmhouse near Enmouth Hundgate in Norfolk. His property had been broken into multiple times and he felt deeply threatened by repeat intrusions.

On the night of August the 20th, 1999, Barris and an accomplice named Brendan Fearon, who was 29, broke into Martin's home. In response, Martin fired three shots with an unlicensed pump action shotgun because we don't have yeah well farmers have guns but no one else does in this country. But it was an unlicensed shotgun and it hit Barris in the back as he tried to flee.

No, that's not okay. So Fearon Barris's accomplice was also injured but he survived the attack. Now, Martin argued that he had been terrorized by previous break-ins.

His actions were driven by a genuine fear for his life. He lived in a very isolated rural part of Norfolk and he felt that he had no other way to protect himself. However, the fact that Barris was shot in the back raised questions about whether Martin's actions were in self-defense or whether they constituted excessive force.

Yeah. So Martin was initially charged with murder and following a highly publicized trial, he was found guilty of murder in 2000. The court concluded that his response went beyond what was considered reasonable force primarily because of the fact that Barris was one a teenager, two was not armed and three was attempting to escape.

He was leaving. If you shoot someone in the you haven't got the same right, you haven't got the same argument as Osborne Brooks here. No, not at all.

So Martin was sentenced to life in prison for murder, but this sentence was later reduced to manslaughter on appeal and this was due to there being grounds for diminished responsibility because of how regular and or like the terrorization of him. That and also he was he was said to have a paranoid personality disorder. Okay.

And the courts they eventually sort of they lowered his sentence to five years and he was released in 2003 after only serving three. Wow. And that was because of this paranoid personality disorder which his lawyers argued had influenced his perception of threat during the incident.

This was again, I remember it. I was a lot, lot younger than I was with the Richard Osborne Brooks case, but I remember this being in the news and politicians, the media and the public were so divided on this. Some argued that Martin's actions were justified given his isolated living situation and the multiple burglaries.

Others contended that shooting a fleeing child was excessive and that the law had to maintain boundaries on the use of lethal force. So the Martin case spurred calls for a load of legislative reform in the UK and while it didn't immediately change the law, it did lead to increased scrutiny of self-defense policies and ultimately influenced future legal clarifications around what was deemed proportionate. Right.

So in response to cases like Martin's, the UK government issued guidance emphasizing that while homeowners, and when I say homeowners, I don't, you don't actually have to own your home. Just somewhat, yeah. Like it could be a renter.

But the UK government issued guidance emphasizing that while homeowners have a right to protect themselves, the force used must be proportionate to the threat faced. That makes sense. I'm going to get into a bit here around reasonable force and proportionality because I think it's quite, it's slightly tricky to get your head around it and yeah, but it's really important.

Yeah. The Criminal Justice and Immigration Act of 2008 later introduced provisions that clarified homeowners rights to defend themselves with force stating that disproportionate force could still be legally acceptable in the heat of the moment, although grossly disproportionate force remains unlawful. The legislation sought to balance homeowners rights to protect themselves with safeguards against excessive violence.

The case sparked a national debate on self-defense laws and homeowners rights, and we go back to the case we're talking about. Richard Osborne Brooks is released without charge, highlighted that these legal allowances that had been brought in for reasonable force in cases of self-defense had like they've kind of come into their own bit now. So while homeowners have the right to defend themselves and their homes against intruders, the level of force used must align with what is considered necessary in the specific circumstances.

So here is- So ma'am don't kill. Essentially yeah. So reasonable force.

Under the Criminal Law Act of 1967, any person may use reasonable force in self-defense to prevent a crime or to defend others. In cases where homeowners are confronted by an intruder, they are allowed to use force if they genuinely believe it is necessary to protect themselves or their families from immediate harm. Reasonable force is generally understood to mean the minimum force necessary to neutralize the threat.

What is deemed reasonable depends on the context and the law considers that homeowners may not have time to carefully assess the level of force needed in moments of panic. So if you have someone break into your home and they're coming to, you know, attack you or your wife or you perceive that there's going to be an attack, if you pick up a baseball bat that you've got and hit them with it, that could be deemed reasonable force because you don't know this person, you don't know what they're likely to do. Hit them with it, then you tie them up, then you hit them with it again.

No, no, no. Not okay. Not okay.

Not reasonable. And also it may be that if you hit them once, that's okay. Hitting them more than once when they're already incapacitated, not okay.

Ma'am don't kill. Exactly. Proportionality.

So the courts then assess whether the force used was proportional to the threat. So for instance, if an intruder threatens harm, force may be justified. However, excessive or gratuitous force, such as attacking an intruder who is already subdued or fleeing may not be.

A homeowner who confronts an intruder using a weapon, such as a bat or a knife, may be justified if they feel in immediate danger, especially if the intruder is also armed. However, if the force appears excessive or retaliatory, it may not be considered lawful. So that's our point about.

So if you grab a knife because he's got a screwdriver and he's coming at you, fair. Proportionality. If you witness the burglar leaving and you shoot them in the back, unfair.

No. If you also hold a knife out, the ma'am with the screwdriver walks into it, and then you continue to stab him. Not cool.

Not okay. Singular stab once. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Okay. This is the bit where I found it quite interesting because it comes back to something that you said earlier. So under UK law, homeowners are not legally required to retreat from an intruder.

They may stand their ground if they feel threatened. However, if it is clear that an intruder is leaving or poses no further threat, continuing to use force could be deemed disproportionate. So we said earlier, he had the decision to say, just take what you want and go.

According to the law, he didn't have to do that at all. I say, he's protected according to my mum, he did. But he's protected under UK law to not do that.

I mean, I would 100% agree with you like, well, yeah, there's a replacement thing. Exactly. But it's yeah, under UK law, you don't have to do that.

Trevor's be sensible. Just do that. You can replace your things and even irreplaceable things aren't that important if you're not there to enjoy them.

Exactly. Exactly. Again, she'd bear wise.

And then in cases where death occurs. So if a homeowner's actions result in the intruder's death, the law still protects the homeowner if they acted in genuine self-defense and used what was considered to be reasonable force. Each case is evaluated on its unique facts, including the perceived threat and the force used.

So there is no blanket rule on this. And the intent is not to punish homeowners for protecting themselves, but to ensure the response was proportionate to the risk that they faced. Okay.

So you can't be saying, I tortured this man because he tried to go into my house. No, no, find another excuse. Chasing intruders.

So if an intruder attempts to flee, the homeowner's right to use force diminishes while they may attempt to prevent the intruder from escaping by holding them until police arrive, using physical force beyond what's necessary to contain them is not justified. Okay. Force used outside the immediate threat environment, such as chasing down an intruder is typically seen as going beyond self-defense and can lead to legal issues.

Because it's not defensive, is it? You're on the attack. You're on the attack. Then on the attack.

Yeah. Last bit of a risk. No.

The law recognizes that homeowners may be in a state of heightened fear or stress when facing an intruder. No, Sherlock, which may affect their judgment. Courts are generally sympathetic to homeowners who act out of genuine fear for their lives or safety, understanding that decisions in such circumstances may be made quickly and under pressure.

So again, there really is no blanket rule for this. It's all taken into account dependent on the circumstances. And then the crown prosecution service has issued guidelines that clarify that householders who act in reasonable self-defense are unlikely to face prosecution, even if the intruder dies provided that the force used was reasonable.

So they won't come after you. But self-defense must be immediate and responsive, not preemptive or excessive. If an intruder dies due to force deemed reasonable, the CPS typically supports the homeowners actions.

Okay. So I wanted to do some key comparisons with the Hithergreen incident and the Tony Martin case because they are very frequently compared. And realistically, I think that there's not like, yeah, there were burglaries and men died.

But I would say that that is the only comparison to make that very different. But because they are constantly compared, I thought I'd do that. Yeah.

The nature of force. So Tony Martin and the case in Norfolk, he used a shotgun, which contrasted sharply with the Osborne Brooks use of a kitchen knife, which appeared to be more situational and less preemptive. However, whilst I agree that yes, most people have kitchen knives and not a lot of people in the UK have pump action shotguns, Tony Martin was a farmer.

So it made sense that there was a shotgun in his house. Exactly. Yeah.

But the question would be, would it make sense for the shotgun to be within arms reach in the middle of the night? Or should it have been locked away in a cabinet somewhere, whereas a kitchen knife, if you're in a kitchen and you're faced with somebody who's threatening you, it's a thing that you can grab. It's contextual. It is.

Yeah. The state of the intruder. So in Martin's case, Barras, who again, I need to repeat this was 16, was shot while trying to escape, which led to questions about whether or not Martin's life was truly at risk when it wasn't, because he was trying to leave exactly.

In contrast, Mr Osborne Brooks defended himself while cornered. Yeah. And the intruder was advancing upon him.

And then the public reaction. So both cases did get a lot of public sympathy. And they both they both ended with calls for stronger legal protections.

And yeah, it was kind of like, I think that there was a lot more of a blurred line and a lot more flip-flopping like we've done today in the Osborne Brooks case than there was in the multi case. Yeah, it is much less cut and dry. Yeah.

Yeah. So what happened to the Osborne Brooks family? After the incident, Richard and Maureen Osborne Brooks faced a dramatic upheaval in their lives. The intense media scrutiny, public attention and threats of retaliation from some members of Henry Vincent's family and associates made it impossible for them to continue living safely in their own home.

And they'd been there for over 40 years. That's really fucking sad. They were advised by the police to relocate for their own safety, given concerns that Vincent's family could potentially seek retribution for his death.

And reports indicate that they were moved to a secret location where they began a new life under new identities. Jesus, and she's dementing. Yeah.

So even on her lucid days, man, it's just horrible. Because even on her lucid days, unless you're absolutely certain you're not going to be overheard like you've got to tell her she's wrong. Yeah.

Yeah. So how's that going to? Oh, fuck, that's tough. In the days following the incident, the house was boarded up and remained under police watch.

And once the home had been vacated, the property was sold. But it was sold at around £100,000 under market value. And it kind of meant the end of the Osborne Brooks connection to the neighborhood that they'd lived in.

And there was loads of kind of upset about this. There was a lot of the neighbors were really because of me at the end of the day, whether he should or shouldn't have done it, whether he should or shouldn't have picked up a knife, whatever, he didn't invite any of this. No, he didn't incite it.

He didn't like none of this. Like, it's completely unfair. It is unfair.

It's it's completely wrong. It's completely. It's such a minefield.

And then the other thing that I haven't that's that's the case, by the way, you guys I can see that I've handed the laptop back you guys can't. But the other thing that like I didn't mention in it, because it kind of, I didn't want it to be it's already quite a that's the word, it is contentious. Henry Vincent was also him and his family, were members of the traveler community.

Okay. And there is question about whether or not some of the reaction to them right was due to the fact that they are from a marginalized community as well. Yeah, would would the community have had the exact same response, if it had been the son of a Lord and like, like, no one no one knows, would there been more sympathy for Vincent, yeah, from the public, if he hadn't been a traveler? Potentially, we don't know.

I mean, and it's it's one of those things where it's like, unfortunately, a lot of the research that I had to do for this case, the places where a lot of the reports were are newspapers that I potentially wouldn't read normally. So I was trying to be really careful about some of the language used as well, because, you know, fuck it, I don't know, the son are not particularly good at there, trying to remain unbiased about these things. So they threw a lot of the fact that he was a traveler into the mix.

I don't know necessarily that it was an issue to the community, but I'm I'm not there. I'm not one of them. I don't know.

Well done. Thanks, mate, as always expertly told. I'm going to be thinking about this forever.

It's one of the will genuinely it because of the, I jokingly said it earlier about like, we're going to get whiplash, like genuinely, the amount that I've gone from, oh, no, definitely Mr. Oswald. What the hell was he in his house? Well, but yeah, but naturally, yeah, he shouldn't have been in his house, but does that mean that he should have died? Yeah, exactly. It's, it's just, and I remember at the time actually having a conversation with my mum about it and being like, yeah, but you, there was still a, he still had a student person, like, yeah, like, like, he said, like we said, like, who wrongs don't make a right? Yeah.

Like, yes, he was doing something wrong. Yeah. That doesn't mean his death is justified.

No, no, no. But then on the flip side, the poor, elderly couple who now haven't got work enough in the middle night now, like, and their entire lives are turned upside down. And yeah, in the twilight of their, of their lives, which by all accounts, they've lived quite peacefully.

Yeah. Yeah. And quote, normally.

Yeah, it's horrible. It is, it's just like, there are no winners in this. No winners.

I think the only one who got away with shit was Mr Billy James. Oh, yeah. You kind of get anything done.

Got away with that. Right. They didn't know.

But yeah. Oh, mate. There you go.

Well done. Thanks. Thanks.

I'll be interested to hear, like, what some of our American listeners think about the case, just because I think that there's quite, you know, like the dialogue around this sort of crime. It's down to ground and defend your home. And there's a lot more of that dialogue in it happens.

This is a perception and an opinion. But like, to me, it feels like it's a conversation that's had a lot more regularly in the States than it is. Yeah.

I think I can, my opinion agrees with you there. Yeah. I just will be interested to see what what other people think about it.

Because I think the reason why it was so contentious in the UK is because we haven't had these things. And the fact that there is the legal stuff that I spoke about at the end, there are protections for homeowners. We're not like saying that anyone has the right to come into your house.

It's not free for all. No, it's really not. But it's just, it's not, it doesn't feel as cut and dry as it maybe does in the States.

No. But then that could also be my ignorance about not knowing a lot about the cases over there. So when we run out of South London and we have to do South American crime, I'm sure we'll find out.

Yep. Yep. God.

I'm going to do that. That is opening a very large kind of room. We'll do South England before we move on.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And then we'll do the South of France. Anyway, I suppose all that's left then is all the nice things really. We've got an Instagram.

Yeah. We've got a TikTok. We do.

We've got a Facebook group. We do. We've got an email address.

I've got a website. All of these things are accurate. Look at me go.

Look at you. She's on fire. Yeah.

Come and say hello to us. Yeah. Come talk to us.

Come talk to us. Have an email for a few weeks. Come on.

Yeah. Someone say hello. What are you doing? Only nice ones, guys.

Only nice ones. I will call the place. And I suppose the other thing says that if anyone's got any other cases that they'd like us to cover, let us know.

There was one. I'm saying this purely because I'm needing to caveat myself a bit in the fact that there was one that was suggested and I looked into it and I'm still looking into it and I'll explain it in the next episode that I do. The extent of how much I've looked into it because that's a whole other thing.

Okay. And I'm waiting for things to come to me in the post. That's how much I know if you'd rather lie me.

So I always knew this day would come. Yeah. Yeah.

That's a little tip bit for you. But yeah, if anyone's got any other crimes that have happened to South London, there have been a lot recently. There'll be a little floating head on Friday about some of the ones that have been going on of late because it does feel a bit scary.

It is a bit mad out there. Also, if anyone wants to see the video of the men that mooned me, DM me, man. And I'll send it.

Let's see if it's any of your brother's uncles or sons. And if it is, you make sure you give them a very stern talking. Exactly.

You make them listen to this. Yeah, exactly. That's punishment.

They have to listen to the podcast now. Every week. Every week.

If we have to listen to do a comprehension test on it afterwards. Well, are you doing that? Yes. I loved that.

Did you? Oh, you little weirdo. And what's the one verbal reasoning on non-verb? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But whichever one of those words was wrong.

Non-verbal reasoning. Yeah, non-verbal reasoning I liked because it was just like, it was just like the apostles. Yeah, I didn't mind either of them.

It was good. Anyway, it's your side next. Yeah.

Do you know what you're doing? No, cool. You gave me one. I started it and I think it's going to be a Patreon special.

Patreon. Oh, yeah. If I just start hammering comments, please, if it gets to I don't know.

Fuck it. I'm going to put a deadline on it. Oh, if it gets the first of April and we don't have a Patreon to launch, even if it's just we are now ready to go.

Yeah. Because so we can't launch the Patreon on April Fool's Day, mate. You don't really need to give us money.

If they want to give us money more for them. More of this in Asia, but Java. Well, I thought I had a really good, I'm going to give out his Instagram handle.

Oh, you can give it out. You don't ever fucking look at it. It's literally there for me to talk in a chamber.

Oh, fighting talk. You can all ring him. He'll ignore that.

Well, he'll give the best thing today is to give out his email address. Give out his email address. And then if everyone could just send him very well-structured tickets as if you're talking to an IT helper.

Yes. He won't be able to ignore that. That's what I will do.

I will set up a service desk, as soon as to South Service desk. Oh God, say that six times before. And we can all submit our tickets.

Yeah. That's a good idea. Let's do that.

That's a fucking threat. You hear that, and it is proportionate. Very good.

Very good. Right. Okay.

We love you. We're going to back her off now. Yeah.

We'll speak to you later. Speak to you later. Love you.

Love you. Bye. Bye.