Lightning Struck Twice – Naomi Hunte & Fiona Holm

This week we bring you the devastating story of two women, Naomi Hunte and Fiona Holm, both murdered by the same man: Carl Cooper. Both had warned police. Both were ignored. And both were lost because no one acted when it mattered.

We talk about stalking, missed red flags, a crowbar attack that led nowhere, and a family forced to do the investigating themselves. Plus, the absolute fury of watching a system shrug and walk away – twice.

There’s chat about chaotic Patreons, accidentally sending bonus episodes to the wrong people, and whether Gemma Collins has secretly taken over our mics… but at its heart, this episode is about two women who deserved better. And the very long list of people who failed them.

Sources include: 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/carl-cooper-murder-trial-naomi-hunte-fiona-holm-b2556574.html

https://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/24425248.lewisham-man-carl-cooper-jailed-life-murders/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/articles/cv2gnn6n0deo.amp

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cv2glr24egzo

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/sep/19/met-investigates-four-officers-over-case-of-double-domestic-murderer

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/met-police-failed-to-stop-abuser-killing-two-victims-carl-cooper-n7vn7jdw6?region=global

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/woolwich-murder-naomi-hunte-plumstead-common-police-london-crime-b983123.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/carl-cooper-met-police-fiona-holm-b2595131.html

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• 14:36 (Cont.) Lightning Struck Twice – Naomi Hunte & Fiona Holm

Transcript

Ep 23 - Carl Cooper-001

Hello, I'm Rachel, I'm Hannah, and this is the Siniser South podcast, your weekly foray into the underbelly of South London. You are getting so good at those. I love it.

Stop. I love it. You're nice to me.

Oh my god. Oh dear, I liked that very well. I liked that very well.

I liked it very well. Oh, this is going to be less chaotic than last week. Said not us.

So much less chaotic. It'll be fine. Oh god.

How are you? I'm on the edge. Fine. Fine.

Fine. Fine. Why not? Good.

Why bloody not? Let's just bloody go. Let's go. Let's just bloody go.

Let's bloody do it. Why not? Let's get on it. Life's short.

Agreed. And then you die. Hopefully.

Say hopefully. I'm joking mum. I'm joking.

Very well adjusted actually. You are. I'm still blonde.

You're still blonde. You are still blonde. Much to my slight upset.

But it's fine. I understand. Let's see how long that lasts.

I'm happy for your improved mental health. Fucking hell. I don't know if that's funny because of the way you said it or funny because we both know it's a lie.

No, I'm fine. It's fine. Life is fine.

I've got a breakthrough in my head. Yeah. You? Yeah.

I mean some people would say that that's enough to make you need to dye your hair. I know. All fine.

Just sick of my own shit. Fair. Fair.

I get that. I'm the same. I'm very much like I spoke to the lovely Lisa again today.

Yes. My counsellor and honestly there are days where I'm just, I know it's her job. I know it's her job but at the same time I'm just like I don't, I couldn't do your job.

No. I'm just like I'm telling me to shut up. How are you? Stop moaning.

I think at one point today I was talking to her about the fact that my youngest she's got a new so she went from being like very aggressive tantrums and now we've moved past the aggressive tantrums and now they're just irritating. Right. They're just like, just stop whinging.

Everything is a moan. Everything is a whinge. And I was saying all of this to Lisa and then did go and I am self-aware enough to see where she might get it from.

Oh God that is reason like 912 to add to the list of why I'm not going to have children. Could you imagine this distilled? Can you imagine the Robinson's Cordial version of this? Absolutely not. And I know, I'm talking about before you had water.

Yeah. I mean I still would love to see it. No one could cope with that.

No one. Oh dear. Yeah.

Bundles of joy. Bundles. Oh mate.

Well I'm glad that you're alright. That's the second time you've said that. It's making it sound like a cry for help.

I'm really glad she's alright guys. She's fine guys. She's really okay.

Everything's fine. Oh dear. Should we talk about the Patreon? We could talk about the Patreon if you want to talk about the Patreon.

Look, I don't know. We don't know. We don't know what we're doing guys.

We don't know if I've messed it up or not. Potentially some of you got an additional episode you shouldn't have or some of you didn't get the additional episode you were meant to get. I actually think it is.

I think what we've done is that people who weren't meant to get two in a month got two. But I don't actually think that's messing it up. I think we've just given them a gift.

Fair. We'll sort it out properly. I have never professed to know what the fuck was going on with any of this.

And I had to do all sorts of transcribe things. You did. You did very well.

I had to do all sorts of stuff and it was nerve wracking. And you weren't in the country. And so I just gave it to people.

So if you ever want free additional content that you're absolutely not entitled to, hit me up. Who knows, I might just fucking email it to you. You did perfectly well.

And to be fair, I think it was actually partly my fault because I think you even asked the question, is it for these people and these people? And I think my response was yes. Oh fine, if I can blame you. And that was an incorrect response.

So I actually think it was probably my fault. Listen. I was apparently off my face on very watered down pina coladas at the time.

Off my face. Off my face on a cocktail that supposedly looked at some rum at some point. Because that is who I am as a human.

I'll tell you what we've done is that we launched the Patreon because we kept talking about launching it. And we launched it so that it was in line with the one year anniversary of the podcast, which was like it was a good idea, it was a good move. And then we promptly went oh fuck, we've actually got to do this now.

And then I went on holiday and then we had just like a couple of weeks at work that were just a bit insane. And now it's sort of like trying to sort the shit out and get it all working. So those of you who have paid for two episodes a month, you will get an additional piece of content.

We have decided that it's not going to be two mini episodes now because we were trying to work our set up. Honestly, it was ridiculous. It was like that scene from it's always something in Philadelphia with Charlie Day and the rib.

It's Pepe Silva! It was like that. There is no HR! It was very much like that. Trying to work out, well, if the people at that tier get two, does that mean that only those people are only ever going to hear that episode, but those episodes could work.

It was a whole thing. We've decided that we're going to do something different for the second episode that you get if you are a £10 and up patron. And the first one will come out at some point in June.

It's not today. It might be. It might be.

We don't know. Depending on when we've actually put out what we record. Honestly, Travers, it's been some stuff.

For two people who are quite type A a lot of the time, there is something about coming into this tiny shed, putting these headphones on that we're both like, we're so scatty! We're really not as people. But if we just put these headphones on. I think what it is, it's like all the brain power goes into like, I must listen.

I must respond in correct ways and then there's no room for anything else. I'm going to make an interesting statement about this now. So the rest of what comes out of our mouth is just like absolute bullshit.

It's alright mate, it's alright. It's fine. Oh dear, I don't know why I sounded like Gemma Collins then but there we go.

It's okay, you didn't. Don't worry. It's going to be one of those things again where it's like in my own head, I sound completely different to how everyone else is.

Yeah. Where were we coming back from when we were on the train? We had had a few drinks. It's when we went to see Mr Policeman.

Oh yeah, and then I unleashed my repertoire of accents to you but then just kept saying no one will ever believe you. No one will ever believe you. It was amazing because in like what, 25 years of friendship? I think I've only ever heard them about two or three times.

I do them often. And it was the sustained length of time. I absolutely adored it.

I was so happy. Just made my night. I didn't want to get off the train.

You made me book an Uber that was like, oh fucking hell, I didn't even tell you about that bloody Uber. What? It was fine. It was just like, he was one of those who was very chatty.

Oh no. But he was chatty in quite a thick accent. I couldn't place where the accent was but it was quite thick.

You just had all that training on the train. All the training. But in my head I was just waiting for the brilliant Australian accent to come out and I don't know where he was from but he had a very thick accent.

I'd had a couple of drinks and was kind of like half listening half not and so it was just a lot of yeah, uh-huh, okay. Shopping. And then he was like, I'm here.

You're not here because I'm here. There's no car. No, I'm here.

I'm here. You're not here. I'm at the station.

Okay. Oh, I think I'm at the other side of the station. Okay.

Would you want me to walk to you? No, no, I'll come to you. And then five minutes later, I'm still here. Oh my God.

Where do you want me to go? Anyway. Yeah, that was quite amusing. Yeah.

We do kind of go a bit scatterbrained in the tiny shed. I think it's also because there's not a lot of air in the tiny shed. No.

It's small. And we do spout a lot of hot air. We do spout a lot of hot air.

Together. We do. But you know what? That is our want.

It is. It's all good. All good.

I've got a bit of a nasty case for you if you want it. Oh gosh. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of the point.

Do you fancy it? Yeah. Fuck it. Why not? I'll tell you.

I'll tell you then. Full disclose. This one isn't very nice.

And there's lots of all of the show notes will have the sources in. There we go. All of the sources will be in the show notes.

Fucking hell. That's the energy we're running on today guys. But yeah, trigger warning for quite a lot of stuff.

There's quite a lot of mentions of domestic violence. There is also mention of substance abuse and other things of that ilk. So just prep yourselves.

And we'll begin. Okay. South East London, Valentine's Day 2022.

While couples across the city were marking the day with flowers and dinners and soppy social media posts, a neighbour in Cambridge Village made a discovery that would stay with them forever. 41-year-old Naomi Hunt was found dead on the sofa of her Plumstead flat, stabbed multiple times. 16 months later, 48-year-old Fiona Holm vanished without a trace from Catford and she hasn't been seen since.

The man at the centre of both these cases was Carl Cooper, a handyman with a long and violent history. Both women had raised the alarm about him and both had reported being stalked, threatened and assaulted. And both were ultimately killed.

This is the story of two women who tried to protect themselves. It's the story of a man who used control and coercion as weapons and of the systematic failures that allowed him to move from one victim to the next. It's a case that raised serious questions about how domestic abuse is handled, how early warnings are acted on and what justice looks like when it comes too late.

This is the case of Carl Cooper and the women that he left behind. So who was this piece of shite? Carl Cooper was born in Jamaica and moved to London in the late 1990s when he was around 40 years old. There is limited publicly available information about his early life.

I have absolutely no idea or details about his parents or siblings or why he moved to the UK but he did and he arrived quietly and for a while he stayed fairly quiet. He wasn't on any radars for anything or anyone. He just seemed to arrive and settle into life in the UK.

By all outward appearances he led a fairly ordinary life. He worked as a handyman. He picked up odd jobs around South East London.

He was the kind of man that you might have passed on the street without a second glance. But beneath that surface was a deeply dangerous individual with a long and violent history. Cooper wasn't just known to the women in his life.

He was known to police but this only kind of started around sort of 1999. So he arrived early 90s 1999 is the first time he's kind of on police radar and he is on police radar in quite a significant way. His name had been on the police systems in 1999 when he stood trial for the attempted murder of a former partner.

The case went to the old Bailey and he walked away a free man. Not because he was innocent but because the evidence wasn't strong enough to stick. He didn't make headlines.

He didn't leave a public trail but within certain circles and among the women who survived him and the people who loved them Carl Cooper's name was said with fear. There were warnings whispered ones passed between friends and sisters and social workers. That he was jealous, possessive, that he had a temper, that he had a knife or a screwdriver and he was happy to use them when women got out of line.

He attached himself to women he thought he could isolate. Usually women with mental health conditions, women with learning difficulties, women struggling with addiction or loneliness. He found their weaknesses and then exploited them, isolated them, belittled them, hurt them.

And by the early 2020s Cooper was living in the Hither Green slash Catford area of South East London. I say Hither Green slash Catford because genuinely it is very blurred as to where one starts and the other begins. And despite his violent past and despite the fact that police had him on their radar he had never been convicted of any previous offence even though he'd been charged.

Never been convicted so he was kind of allowed to just live his life. By the time he stood trial in 2024 for two separate murders the picture was clear. He was described in court as a callous bully a man with a predilection to control women and someone who was prone to violence when challenged.

The judge said plainly you are a great danger to women. But Cooper didn't become dangerous overnight. He didn't explode he escalated and by the time the system caught up with him two women were dead.

And now I'm going to tell you their stories and I'm going to do it we're going to focus on Naomi first and then I'll focus on Fiona because even though there is overlap as you'll see I think it's like it makes more sense to kind of look at them as isolated. Yeah in isolation. Naomi Hunt was 41 at the time of her death.

The only child of her father Basil who described her as the centre of his world. They were close, protective of each other and he was proud of her and she of him. Throughout the trial of her killer Basil sat in court every single day wearing socks that read number one dad.

A quiet tribute to the daughter he loved and the fight for justice that he refuses to give up on. Naomi lived alone in a flat on Congleton Grove in Plumstead South East London. She had her own space and her own routines.

Some neighbours said that she was quite quiet but others said that she was quite friendly she usually kept to herself but she wasn't a withdrawn person. So she had certain friends where she lived who described her as very warm and friendly, said that she always said hello but then others remembered her as being a little bit more reserved and sometimes doing that thing that I think we have all done many times where we pretend not to see someone so we don't have to say hello. Oh god yeah.

So yeah to be honest in essence she was just a normal woman living a normal life. Sometimes she was in the mood to be friendly and other times not. Friends described her as vibrant and sociable and she had a lot of friends, enough that her absence from their lives would be noticed.

So she became more reserved over time and it was a lot of the friends around her said that this started after she met Karl Cooper. Their relationship was very off again on again and at first glance people kind of said that it was fine. It was one of those stereotypical off and on again relationships.

It wasn't great but it was fine. No one really saw anything dangerous or concerning other than the fact that there were friends who would say well what are you doing with him? But it didn't really come across as anything worse than that. But what Naomi knew and what she tried again and again to get people to understand was that Karl Cooper wasn't just unpredictable.

He was obsessed with her. So over a span of approximately nine months between late 2020 and 2021 Naomi reported Cooper to the police at least four times. She detailed his escalating harassment and expressed growing fears for her safety.

She said he stalked her, waited outside her home, banged on her door, called her constantly and she tried to distance herself from him as much as she could but he just wouldn't let it go. And in one significant incident on June the 29th 2021, police officers responded to Naomi's call personally rather than just kind of taking the complaint over the phone. And during this visit which is captured on body worn camera footage and was later presented in court, Naomi is heard saying and I quote, he's stalking me.

Harassment is an everyday occurrence. I'm really scared now. She calls him a nutter, a coward and a psychopath.

And she says that she is genuinely really scared about what he's going to do next and the escalation. And despite this clear articulation of fear and the pattern of harassment she described, the police response was fairly limited. What more do women have to do? What more do you have to do? I know, it's mad.

Now they did, so police did arrest Cooper after this complaint. And the Met designated him as a high risk offender and a domestic violence priority case. And they did attach a warning to his name in their internal systems.

However, it seems like for all of that it don't mean anything because they can't actually do anything. He was arrested. He was warned to stay away from her.

His name had a little tag next to it on their systems. And that was that. And then in a subsequent report in October of 2021, Naomi informed the police that Cooper's behaviour had intensified.

She described him as controlling, jealous and aggressive, noting that he became violent whenever she refused his advances or told him to leave her alone. And during this police visit, Cooper is apparently there. He's present.

And he can be heard shouting in the background of the footage that the police have got. They can hear him shouting at her and making horrible remarks about her and just being fairly vile. But the police didn't arrest him there and then.

They just did nothing. Because I suppose the argument is that you can say horrible things to your partner. That's not a crime.

But if you've already been tagged as a high risk, she's already told you she's scared for her life. And he's literally there demonstrating this behaviour. Nothing's done.

Nothing's done. Oh my god. It just makes you feel fucking hopeless.

It is. No, you're right. Despite these signs, the police did not arrest him.

Instead, they stated that no offences had been disclosed. Naomi said she was scared, but she hadn't said that he hadn't done anything illegal. So he couldn't be arrested.

Naomi was then left by police to manage Cooper's presence on her own. There was no restraining order, no protection and no meaningful intervention. Not even a restraining order.

Nope. Nothing. Jesus Christ.

And then in the weeks leading up to Valentine's Day 2022, Cooper's behaviour escalated even further. Naomi's friends, family and neighbours all reported her being much more withdrawn. She was much quieter, a lot more cautious.

She was very kind of skittish. Fucking terrified. Exactly.

We don't know exactly how often Cooper was still showing up, but we do know that Naomi felt trapped and isolated in this situation that she found herself in. On the 14th of February 2022, Cooper went to Naomi's flat on Congleton Grove in Plumstead. We know that he was the last person to see her alive, and we know that shortly after he left the flat, Naomi Hunt was dead.

She was found on her blood-soaked sofa with multiple stab wounds to her chest. The alarm was raised by a neighbour who had heard loud noises, including a scream emanating from Naomi's flat in the early hours of that day and concerned by the disturbance and the lack of subsequent activity. The neighbour had contacted the authorities.

Upon arrival, police officers accompanied by firefighters forcibly entered the flat and inside they found Naomi on the sofa. At her post-mortem, the pathologist determined that Naomi's cause of death was a single stab wound to the chest, indicating that there may well have been an element of overkill to her murder. A knife with a 2-3 inch serrated blade resembling a steak knife was discovered covered in blood on the kitchen counter in her flat.

Following the discovery of Naomi's body, Cooper was arrested on suspicion of her murder, but despite being the obvious suspect due to Naomi's prior reports of his harassment and threats, he denied involvement during police interviews and, due to insufficient evidence at the time, he was released under investigation. I mean, I suppose the rational thing to say is that if the evidence isn't there, you know, like, they can't just hold him on because they think it's him. No.

But, when you know it's him. Fucking hell. Just your odds are stacked against you, like.

100% they are. 100% they are. Quote, we didn't have any direct evidence to say that Cooper murdered Naomi, said Detective Chief Inspector Kate Blackburn, who was the lead investigation on her murder.

It wasn't a straightforward case, she said, otherwise he would have been charged at the time he was arrested. We don't release people for murder on a whim. The initial investigation faced challenges in gathering conclusive evidence.

Although Naomi's blood was later found on Cooper's jacket, the forensic results were not immediately available. Additionally, while Cooper admitted to being with Naomi on February the 10th, he claimed she had taken drugs and began acting strangely, leading him to leave. And he even made a call to her mobile phone that evening, which went unanswered.

So yeah, despite Naomi's multiple reports to the police about Cooper's harassment, the lack of immediate concrete evidence led to him being released. And this decision has been a point of contention and regret for the police in the months since Naomi's death. Commander Paul Brogan acknowledged the shortcomings in handling the case, stating we have always been clear that we made mistakes when dealing with allegations against Carl Cooper.

For those mistakes, we are extremely sorry. And while Naomi's family waited for justice, Carl Cooper moved on with his life. And it wouldn't be too long before he found a new victim.

So I'm now going to tell you the story of Fiona Holm, who unfortunately is believed to be victim number two. Fiona Holm was a 48-year-old mother from Hither Green. She was born in Surrey and was one of 10 children, raised in a bustling household by a Glaswegian mother and a Bayesian father who worked as a baker.

There's no reason for me telling you that information other than the fact that I found it. So there we go. It's just that, it's in Ireland, it's like a magazine programme, a bit like This Morning or whatever, and this woman's doing a piece to camera.

I can't remember his name, but the male presenter's on screen as well, and she starts talking and it's 10 siblings, and he goes 10 siblings all lost their parents. But his reaction was so disproportionately like, oh my god, 10 siblings! It's quite a famous video that does the rounds now. It's quite funny.

It just made me think of that. Fair, fair, fair. I mean, to be fair, 10 is a lot.

It's a lot. Fiona was a middle child, so she had seven brothers and two sisters. And her family described her as creative, loving, and fun, warm-hearted, quick to laugh, and obsessively tidy.

Apparently, her flat was always immaculate, her fridge was always stocked, and she took pride in keeping things in order no matter what chaos her life brought to her. But Fiona didn't just care for her home, she cared for people as well. Strangers, neighbours, even the overlooked.

And there's a famous story that her daughter tells in an article, which I will link to The Guardian. They did a big piece on Fiona, and her daughter talks about the fact that she once took in a homeless man named Michael, who she found outside Blackheath Station. And she fed him, she clothed him, she let him stay with her.

And, like, yeah, apparently they built a really lovely friendship and she helps him get back on his feet and all this. And apparently it wasn't an isolated incident either. Her younger sister, Elise, said, we used to tell her off.

We used to say, it's too dangerous, Fiona. There was another homeless man in Blackheath called Kevin, and she used to make him egg sandwiches. Oh, God.

Fiona was known to ask after everyone's health in the waiting room at the hospital where she took her daughter, her daughter Savannah had sickle cell, or has sickle cell. And Savannah was saying that whenever they went to the hospital for treatment, she would always be up in everyone's business. How are you doing? Are you taking your meds? How's all this going? And yeah, she apparently used to chat to everyone like they were old friends.

Her family said she was someone who saw people that others ignored. She sounds fucking delightful. Yeah.

From a young age, it was clear that Fiona had her own difficulties. But it wasn't until she was in her 30s that she was diagnosed with autism. And according to Elise, her sister, she had a mental age, the mental age of a 15 year old.

Oh, wow. She went on to say, my mum always knew it. My mum did try and get her help, but I don't think it was as acknowledged like it is today.

Fiona's daughter, Savannah, who is the eldest of four, said Nan got told she was crazy because mum was crying all the time, got told that she was exaggerating. She wasn't believed really. This is what we mean.

Fiona has technically been failed her whole life. Yeah. According to the family, Fiona developed an addiction to alcohol after a traumatic incident in her 20s, although I don't know what that incident was.

Though she had some long periods where she was able to main sobriety, it marked her life and those of her children immensely. Elise had been looking after the youngest of Fiona's children, who was six at the time of her disappearance and still in primary school. And she'd been with her aunt since she was about three.

Savannah and various other family members spoke during the trial about creating boundaries around seeing Fiona when she was drinking as they found it too upsetting. Savannah's quoted as saying, I said to my mum in March, I don't want to talk to you until you're ready for the right help. I'll be there to support you.

But she wasn't ready. And Fiona's story takes an even sadder turn on New Year's Eve 2022, which is the night that she met Carl Cooper. Her family say that things changed almost immediately.

What started as a whirlwind romance became something much, much darker, controlling, dangerous. Cooper isolated Fiona. He monitored her movements, accused her of cheating continuously and it didn't take long before the violence started.

Fiona's family have been quoted as feeling frustrated with themselves for supposedly missing the signs of Cooper's abuse. They say that Fiona had started to withdraw from them and they said that she started worrying about her looks and her weight in a way that she hadn't before, but that they kind of didn't read. I think what it is, is that they did read into it, but it was one of those situations I can't imagine having that sort of relationship where it is like you have to have those boundaries in place.

Yeah, you've got to look after yourself. And I don't think, you know, if any of Fiona's family are listening, I don't think you have anything to blame yourselves for. God no, no, no, no.

In April 2023, Fiona also went to the police about Cooper and she said that he had attacked her with a crowbar and had previously stabbed her with a screwdriver. Now, just to point out, Cooper was 18 years older than Fiona so there's already quite a large age gap and then you add into the mix the fact that they think she had a mental age of about 15. I think it must have been a very scary situation to be in.

Terrifying. On body worn footage, again, she can be heard telling officers and I quote, he wants to kill me. He said, I want to stab you five times.

Oh my god. Her daughter's father, I think it's Savannah's dad, had actually witnessed Cooper hitting her with the crowbar. Oh my god.

No word of whether he tried to intervene. I think he did. Yeah.

But I don't know to what extent and also, yeah, it's not his fault. No. Fiona's sister, Elise, saw the wounds that had been inflicted when they were healing and she tried to encourage Fiona to walk away from him.

Cooper was arrested but he was released without charge. So even though there's witnesses to... so that is hitting someone, whether you're in a domestic situation or not, hitting someone with a crowbar, not okay. No.

Independent witnesses still don't worry about it. Now whether this is because of the fact that Fiona had substance abuse issues or whether it's because... But there was another person that witnessed it, that's what I mean. It's not her word against his.

There's another person that fucking witnessed it. I know. I hate the world.

I know. So yeah, he was released without charge and there was no safeguarding steps put in place either. Fiona, like Naomi, was just left to deal with it on her own.

He was, however, after all this, handed a 28-day domestic harm prevention order. Okay. And on the 20th of June 2023, the day that that order expired, Fiona was seen on CCTV at an off-licence on Verdant Lane in Catford.

Later, she was caught on camera walking alone, wearing a green top and dark leggings. She'd seen friends earlier that evening but after that CCTV footage, she disappeared without a trace. At first, her family thought she might be staying with someone and maybe it was someone that they didn't know because of the boundaries that they put.

But as the days passed, they started to get more and more concerned. Fiona never went that long without checking in, especially with her two youngest children. Of course.

And when her family visited her flat, they found it empty but they found the fridge filled with rotting food and there was still wet laundry in the washing machine. Sorry, that just wouldn't be, that doesn't fit with her. No.

Even if she is drinking, she still maintained that level of cleanliness. It's this immaculate house there, you know. In a notebook on Fiona's dresser, they found handwritten notes.

The family don't know when they were written but one said that life didn't treat her well because of her autism and one was addressed to Savannah saying that she hoped she had a good life and that she loved her loads. It was nothing like her. Something was incredibly wrong.

Her social worker officially reported her missing on the 29th of June 2023. But the family had already called the police multiple times by then. They mentioned Cooper, they voiced their fears but no immediate action was taken.

Then came an anonymous 999 call. A man phoned and said that Carl Cooper had murdered a woman in Catford. He gave a specific location but the call was dismissed by police.

What the fuck? Dude! It was dismissed reportedly because of the caller's strong Jamaican accent. Oh good! Yeah. Fucking, just throw some fucking racism in there, why don't we? And because of that... Have we learned nothing? Because of that police dismissed it as a hoax.

Brilliant, brilliant. The phone call came four days before Fiona was first reported missing by her social worker. Are you fucking kidding me? Quote, for somebody to know then that she's dead or that Cooper's done a murder that week is really significant says DCI Blackburn.

Oh you think? Done a murder? Done a murder. There's a quote. Yeah, so DCI Blackburn who adds that the homicide team were not made aware of that call until very close to the trial because it wasn't seen as significant.

Fiona's family have said that this could have been a turning point but nothing was done. The staff member who took the call received learning through reflection training. Indicating that the force recognised the need for better handling of such reports however specific details about any disciplinary actions taken against that officer have never been publicly disclosed.

Like look, everyone is human. We're all doing the job. I don't believe that that person woke up that morning and thought, fuck it.

This is how I'm going to be today. But don't. Come on.

It's a bit mad. Desperate, her family began their own search. They printed flyers, they walked the streets, they knocked on doors and eventually they went to Cooper's flat.

The windows had been painted over so that people couldn't open them. And Elise and Savannah started scraping some of the paint off of the actual pane of glass when they saw Cooper standing inside staring back at them from the darkness and then he vanished from view. Oh God, oh God.

I don't like it. It was like something out of a horror film, Savannah said. Cooper insisted that he hadn't seen Fiona in a while and denied having had anything to do with her disappearance.

They returned on multiple occasions, this is the family, returned on multiple occasions calling Fiona's name, speaking to the neighbours, trying to find out if anyone knew where she could be. Quote, I didn't think he killed her. That was the worst thing.

I thought he was keeping her against her will, Elise said in an interview with The Guardian after Cooper's trial. In the days that followed, Cooper cleared out his flat, he stripped the wallpaper and was seen lighting a series of fires as he disposed of what police believe may have been Fiona's body and other vital evidence. Quote, if police would have gone round there on that day, they may have found evidence, Savannah said.

The police officers said themselves if they had gone round, they would have treated this case differently. All these things have been too late. He had two, maybe three weeks to get rid of everything.

The family returned on the 11th of July to find Cooper selling some of Fiona's belongings to a market trader. Lovely. And that includes coats and clothes that the family recognised immediately and then this is really sad, Elise said, I smelled my sister on the coats.

No. I knew something was wrong then. And that was the moment that police finally... But he had to be fucking selling her belongings before they'd been like alright, better have a look then.

That was the point that they finally arrested Carl Cooper. The force say that it had been working on a case against him since February 2022 when Naomi was murdered and that even without the presence of Fiona's family, he would have been arrested later that day. Yeah, sure.

But who can say if that's really true or not or if it was the fact that there was lots of pressure being put on them by the family. Anyway, when they searched his flat, finally, they found Fiona's blood on the walls, the door and even on the wifi router. Oh my god.

He had tried to paint over it and redecorate to hide the evidence and he claimed that her blood was there due to a previous accident she'd had with a glass bottle. But it wasn't until after Cooper's arrest that the family were told that he was already under investigation for the murder of Naomi Hunt. They also learned that he'd been tried for attempted murder of a previous partner back in 1999.

Fiona had no idea. She'd never been warned. Her sister Elise said they should have told her.

There just has to be something to warn a woman with domestic crimes especially. Especially when she's reporting to the police about her fear and you've got this man, attempted murder you're trying to build a case against him for murder like what? Is she bait? What are you doing? It's insane. Is her life worth risking? For what? She's been attacked with a crowbar.

She's been stabbed with a screwdriver. You don't think it's time to tell her? And there's an independent witness to that. I can't get over that bit.

I know. Jesus Christ. I try and be like fair.

But fuck off. They make it really hard. That is ridiculous.

So the investigation into Cooper, despite the pleas of her family, Fiona's case was initially treated as a standard missing persons investigation, not one that involved high risk. The early investigation was managed by officers with limited experience in domestic abuse or homicide cases and these officers failed to act urgently despite her known vulnerability and prior allegations of violent assaults by Cooper. Fiona's family feel that the missing persons unit didn't do its job adequately and that they had to take on a lot of the fight to find Fiona themselves.

Since Fiona went missing, they've launched a campaign to find her via Facebook, denounced the media for their lack of coverage and this was very much seen as another case of white women get a lot more traction because it was the same time as what was her name? The lady who was walking by the river and went missing and then they found that she had it was an accidental drowning but she was in her early 40s and they made a load of fuss about her being perimenopausal. Oh God! Gaynor Lord. Yes, so Gaynor was another lady, a 55 year old woman who had gone missing after leaving work in Norwich and whose body was recovered from a river a week later.

It was later found that she had died by misadventure. At the time, this was all over the news and whereas I think Fiona was mentioned once because of Byline. So the family were rightly so.

Jesus Christ, yes. Found that to be very difficult to deal with. They also highlighted a £20,000 reward to find her body.

They searched parks, bushes, abandoned garages, abandoned arches and even rivers, getting into the water themselves to look for her. And DCI Blackburn who headed up this investigation as well as Naomi's, she ended up doing a double shift on both of these cases, said that she was aware that Cooper's case was unusual from the get-go because quote, generally it's quite easy to charge somebody with murder. Anyway.

Do it then. As far as Naomi was concerned, police struggled to find enough evidence early on to get over the threshold for a charge. They knew that Cooper had a violent past but he'd never been convicted of anything before which made him, quote, a rare beast.

But then this was compounded when Fiona went missing. And in a nobody homicide as DCI Blackburn puts it, it's quite uncommon to get a conviction. However, she says the death of both women supported the other.

The evidence of the two cases together supported each other. So essentially what she's saying is that without Naomi they wouldn't have got Cooper for Fiona and without Fiona they wouldn't have got him for Naomi. However, significant failures in communications, safeguarding and risk assessment across departments meant that the links between Fiona and Naomi's cases weren't acted on until it was too late.

The homicide team investigating Naomi's death were told about Cooper's arrest for the crowbar attack on Fiona but according to DCI Blackburn, this didn't add enough to the case for them to re-arrest him over Naomi. The family believed that connections weren't made where they should have been and that this amounts to a dereliction of duty. I just don't get it.

Like, what? I don't understand what you need to do in order to be classed as a violent person who should be arrested. Like, what more does this... What more does this... I don't understand. I just don't get it.

I'm like, it's baffling. I'm completely... We'll get onto it in a bit or like at the end but I wonder if there have been some mention of the fact that all three players in this story are black. Whether that was another factor in the fact that they didn't think to... It's almost like they didn't bother to check what else was going on.

Yeah. It's just a wrong enemy. Don't worry about it.

Sort of vibes. But that is obviously conjecture and that is not anything that's in the public record but it's just what the feeling seems to be. In June 2024, Carl Cooper stood trial at Woolwich Crown Court for the murders of Naomi and Fiona.

He was being held at Belmarsh, which I didn't realise is apparently the prison next door to Woolwich Crown Court. Yeah. I did not know that.

That is new information to me. I didn't realise that that was Belmarsh. Oh, I see.

They've got a tunnel. That's an interesting fact. That's why they put terrorists.

Yes, so he was being held at Belmarsh but was often late to proceedings due to delays in transporting him out of the cells and into the police van and he was portrayed as being weak, tired and feeble. Apparently they used vans because he was weak, tired and feeble rather than the tunnel. I hate this man so much.

During the trial the families of both Naomi and Fiona showed immense strength and solidarity. Naomi's father Basil Hunt was present for every day, always smartly dressed in a black suit and hat but also wearing his socks that read number one dad. Basil remained in court not just for her case, which was discussed first, but also to stage to support Fiona's family throughout.

The only time he was seen taking a break from proceedings was when the evidence shifted to graphic details of Naomi's blood and injuries. Many of Fiona's family members were initially in the public gallery, peering down from above, but as the trial progressed, those closest to Fiona were moved into the courtroom itself, seated just metres from Cooper behind the glass dock. Savannah and Elise were accompanied by a police liaison officer to help explain court proceedings, but often they struggled to hear.

Elise gave heartbreaking testimony, including describing how she found Fiona's coats being sold from Cooper's flat. Her composure broke several times during her testimony as she described Fiona as, my best sister, she's funny, caring, just Fiona, she just trusted too much. The prosecution, led by Joel Smith KC, portrayed Cooper as a callous bully who preyed on vulnerable women.

He emphasised the pattern of behaviour seen by Cooper, noting that both women were in tumultuous relationships with him, had reported his violence and were last seen alive in his presence, and this pattern was then used to assess his MO. On the other side, Cooper's defence, led by Narita Bara, KC, argued that the evidence against him was circumstantial and insufficient for conviction. There were no witnesses, no murder weapons with his DNA on them, and in the case of Fiona, not even a body.

Narita portrayed Cooper as quote, a quirky and unintelligent man who could barely read or write, and on the first day at absolutely no point does that stop you from fucking murdering someone. Oh, he's just a bit quirky. Just a bit quirky.

Um, and then, but this kind of... I didn't know you had to pass a comprehension test to murder someone. I don't know, mate. You had to write a fucking 10,000 word essay.

I know. I know. And then this I found quite interesting, because they were obviously very they were trying to go really hard into the whole he's a weak, feeble man who doesn't know what he's done and is you know, struggling with all this and that.

Because on the first day of the trial, his solicitor and barrister brought in a patois interpreter because he's from Jamaica and so they were like, well he obviously needs you know, we need to have this person in the case. Okay. But it turns out that this woman was brought in, paid for by the taxpayer, was never needed and sent home without making any contribution to the case whatsoever.

Shocker. And in essence, the defence wanted to show Cooper as a harmless old man that's a quote who was being unfairly targeted due to his past relationships with the victims and at one point they cited the Central Park Five case What? Where five young Fuck. Honestly.

And the Central Park Five case, for those who don't know, is when there were five young black men from Harlem in America and New York who were wrongly convicted of assaulting a woman in Central Park and Barra urged the jury, quote, not to jump to conclusions and to consider the direct lack of evidence linking Cooper to the crimes so that there wasn't another miscarriage of justice. Oh you absolute piece of work. Also, this is a woman? Like, come on.

I know that that shouldn't matter but it's like Really? Ally? Maybe? No? And like as if the fucking five haven't been through enough. I know. Then they're getting dragged into this.

Getting their names put next to this piece of shit. I know. I know.

It's astounding. It's astounding. But Cooper didn't help the case.

Despite denying involvement in either murder, he continuously talked over the prosecution while they were questioning him and at one point suggested that, and I am not joking when I say this, suggested that Hamas might have been guilty of kidnapping Fiona. Right, okay. Yeah.

Because that makes so much more sense than you are a violent, awful human who has killed two women. Like, come on now. Honestly.

You can't make it up. You should have said. You cannot make it up.

Central Park 5. Let's get all... Do you know what? I'm not even going to finish that Central Park. I'm just not even going to go there. Like, fuck off.

The lengths that these people will go to astounds me. And I'm also just like, at what point do the barristers go, oh yeah, that sounds like it's a good idea. I suppose all you've got to do is prove reasonable doubt.

I know, but really? Anyway. Anyway. The jury took three days to deliberate before reaching their verdict.

And on the 28th of June, Cooper was found guilty of both murders and sentenced to life imprisonment with a minimum term. Fuck for that. A minimum term of 35 years.

And it is likely that he will spend the rest of his life in jail. I would have burnt the shed to the ground if he'd been found not guilty. No.

I don't blame you. I had no idea what I was going to do with that anger. I was like, oh my God.

No, luckily, luckily justice prevailed. Upon sentencing, Mr. Justice Johnston stated, I'm sure that you, over many years, have been a great danger to women. You have a history of acting in a controlling and coercive manner to your female partners.

Detective Chief Inspector Kate Blackburn commented, Carl Cooper is a dangerous violent domestic abuser who preys on women with vulnerabilities. He took the lives of two vibrant, sociable women who were so very loved by their families and friends. Fiona's sister, Elise, stated after the sentencing, we are tortured by the fact that Fiona's body has never been found, and we are not yet able to lay her to rest.

I will not beg him, but Fiona deserves to be laid to rest. I can't stand the thought of her being out there alone. Since the trial and conviction of Carl Cooper, the families of Naomi and Fiona have been fighting to see more justice, this time related to the failings that they, and I, believe took place when dealing with this case in its entirety.

Four officers were under investigation for misconduct related to their handling of Fiona's April 2023 assault complaint against Cooper. Despite Fiona reporting that Cooper had assaulted her with a crowbar and previously stabbed her with a screwdriver, he was arrested but not charged and no protective measures were implemented, as we said, and a subsequent review concluded that a more thorough investigation could have identified key witnesses, potentially enabling a prosecution without Fiona's direct involvement. Do you fucking think? Initially, the Independent Office for Police Conduct, or IOPC, declined to investigate the case.

However, following persistent requests from the families of Fiona and Naomi, the IOPC agreed in October of 2024 to conduct an independent investigation into the police's handling of both cases. The investigation aims to determine whether systematic failures and potential discrimination contributed to the inadequate responses to both women's reports. The IOPC's investigation is currently ongoing and the outcomes will be crucial in addressing concerns about the Metropolitan Police's handling of domestic abuse cases, particularly involving vulnerable individuals and as and when I know more I will let people know.

So I'm going to do a very quick fun side quest into domestic violence and reporting bias. Yay! So I wanted to end this episode with a quick discussion into the key features of domestic violence and how it's managed by the police, and also of reporting of missing persons cases when the victim is not white. We've had some very strong opinions on these in the past, but I thought that we should spend some time looking at some figures to try and put this into perspective.

Domestic abuse remains a significant issue in the UK. According to the Office of National Statistics, in the year ending March 2024, police in England and Wales recorded approximately 1.4 million domestic abuse related incidents and crimes. Of these, 851,062 were classified as domestic abuse related crimes, representing 15.8% of all recorded crimes in that period.

The police made 41.7 arrests per 100 domestic abuse related reported crimes in the same period, which is an increase from 36 in the previous year. And the number of referrals of suspects to the CPS for charging decisions also increased, reaching 72,641, up from 69,000 the previous year. The CPS charging rate for domestic abuse cases rose to 79%, which is the highest since records began in 2015.

So they are trying to do things. despite these improvements, there are a number of challenges that remain. A report by Refuge highlighted that while the number of offenders convicted was 38,776, this figure is considered low, given the prevalence of domestic abuse.

They emphasize the need for tangible solutions to combat this epidemic of violence and abuse. And disparities exist in the reporting and resolution of missing persons cases, particularly concerning individuals from minority ethnic backgrounds. Research by the charity Missing People found that individuals from minority ethnic groups are more likely to remain missing for longer periods, are less likely to be found by the police, and are less likely to be recorded as being at risk compared to white individuals.

Specifically, 20% of missing incidents involving black children lasted over 48 hours, compared to 13% for white children. And only 16% of incidents involving black children were resolved by the person being found by the police, compared to 23% for white children. And these disparities raise really serious concerns about the safety of people from minority ethnic groups who go missing.

They're not safe. They're not at all. There's no one there to protect them.

They're not safe. That's the end of it. It's horrible.

It makes your skin crawl. The data underscores the need for continued efforts to address domestic abuse and to ensure equitable treatment in missing persons cases. While progress has been made in some areas, significant work remains to protect vulnerable individuals and to eliminate disparities in the criminal justice system.

Two women, two lives, two families left devastated, and one man who should never have been allowed near either of them. Karl Cooper wasn't a mystery to the authorities. His name had been in the system for decades by the time that Naomi was killed.

Naomi told police he was obsessed with her. Fiona told them that he wanted to kill her. Both women were very clear about the dangers that they were in, and both women were ignored, and now both are gone.

And what happened here isn't just about one man's violence. It's about a system that saw the warning signs again and again, but looked the other way. A system that failed to act not once, but repeatedly, even when those in danger were literally crying out for help.

And that is the very sad story of Naomi and Fiona, and the piece of shit that is Karl Cooper. Mate. Firstly, well done, as always.

Thank you. Like, we're not safe as women, and it's a fucking stark fact that we both have to sit here and thank our privilege of being born with a certain skin colour that after we go missing, or after we're domestically abused, or violently assaulted, we might have more attention given to us. Yeah.

It's so... What I found when I was researching this was that it's a devastating case. It's horrible. What happened to Naomi and Fiona was absolutely horrific, and I don't know about the previous partner, her name's never been released, as far as I can find it, but her as well.

It's just, I got to a point where I was writing it just being like, none of this surprises me. No, god no. And when you... I've been desperately wracking my brain, but I didn't want to distract myself by looking through stuff.

But at the very start, once you'd mentioned the first case that he'd got away with, I was like, literally, this is an echo of a case. It's the exact same thing. And all I can remember, I can't remember what case, you did it, which is why I can't remember the bloody names, because if I don't type it, I don't know it.

All I do, one of the big things I remember is that she, there was a quote from her about being scared, and there was something, she said something about, to her dad, about him raping her. Other than that quote coming from that unnamed person, it's exactly the same. It was... Oh, it's going to annoy me now.

Sorry. No, it's fine. I'll find it and I'll put it in the show notes.

But yeah, there is, it was Delroy Grant. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Yeah. Like, I don't, I don't want to continue just repeating the same angry sentences again and again, but what more does, what more do women who are unsafe have to do? What will make those in the positions of protection take notice? Yeah. Especially to those that aren't fucking white.

I know. To those who aren't white and to those who have sort of, you know, Naomi's slightly different because I don't think she had, there certainly wasn't the same level of vulnerability. Yeah.

And if she was vulnerable, it wasn't necessarily spoken about in the, in my research, I couldn't find anything that explicitly said that she was vulnerable other than being a woman on her own. But like with Fiona, I think that it's just this idea as well that like not only is she a woman, not only is she a woman of mixed heritage, but she's also a woman with alcohol abuse issues or alcohol dependency issues, I should say. She's got autism that's been lately, you know, diagnosed late in life.

She's had all of these things just stack up against her. Battle after battle after battle. And just no one, and it almost feels like because of all of those things, no one thought it was, oh well.

She's covered in injuries from being attacked with a crowbar. Oh well. But then Naomi's in the flat and they can hear him kicking off and is no one doing anything about that? Is there a policeman with him at that point? No one knows.

It's just... And again, I'm trying to think of how to word this carefully because I want it to come across how I mean it. But like if I'm sat here scared, and let's not fuck about. I'm scared every day.

All the time, every day. That is, I have a base level fear that I will be murdered. And if I feel like that as a white person, if God knows how a black woman or an Asian woman would feel.

Yeah. It's just mad. It is mad.

And it's just when the people who are meant to protect you just don't. They just don't take it serious. It just happens time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time again.

Exactly. I mean you mentioned the femicide census in one of your cases recently. The fact that they have a femicide census should be enough to tell you that this is not.

I just don't understand and I get and this isn't, I really want this argument to not be the not all men argument because why are we, why is my fear being downplayed because of your ego? If you're a good man, be a good man. Shut up and support us then. If like, why am I having an argument with you about not all fucking men when we should be talking about the routine because this is what this is now.

The unsurprising routine expected failures of all of the people but especially the men around women that are vulnerable and take away all of the other vulnerabilities that these women were experiencing and just focus it again, the women are inherently vulnerable and it's got nothing to do with genetics like oh I'm strong like bull because I am man. I don't give a fuck like that's not what I mean. The vulnerabilities to women are you.

Yeah. It's just I don't even know if it was half of what I was trying to say that was a bit incoherent but it wasn't. I got what you were saying.

It's just like it's just so sombering to like read those stats and when they're read out like that sometimes I think it's really easy to kind of just hear it's just numbers, it's just noise but the fact that it is it is that number those numbers I keep going but I can't remember who it was that said it first I know it was in a Marilyn Manson song God. Bring him up in this conversation please. The whole sentence of the death of one is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic it was someone much more coherent than Manson who said it first but like it is that you can say these numbers and you can say like 14 million domestic abuse domestic abuse cases in a year but that's just it's just okay what's that when you actually start looking at it properly and you start investigating who those people were that's when it becomes real but yeah it's just it's a sombering, sombering tale There's also again maybe this isn't the right forum to have half-baked thoughts but I was researching a case obviously and like keeping my my what's the phrase in keeping my nose in I don't know keep my eye on but like you know the statistics yeah I don't know if this is the right forum to have this conversation but and it's just to put it out there because I've noticed it because in researching cases or just being an interested vulnerable party you know the statistics from Refuge and other domestic domestic violence charities and stuff like three women a week are killed by a partner and the statistics we hear, I've seen a real prevalence in a shift in tone in some of these in the reporting of some of these statistics which highlight the amount of women that die by suicide because of domestic violence and it's almost and I'm not downplaying that as a fucking horrible statistic that exists and it does happen and of course you know but in my tinfoil hat brain it's almost like a shifted narrative of we've got to stop saying that men kill women so now we'll just say that women are killing themselves and like I can't remember I was just trying to google it but I thought just Hannah just don't, you're already going to have a heart attack from how angry you are I was like I can't remember which outlet it was but like it was literally just died by suicide and it kept coming up and I was like hang on a minute I'm not underplaying the importance of that as something we should recognise and that is also something that is prolific and is happening but is there like some kind of masking or softening of the way we're reporting on these statistics now for some reason? I wonder if there is and you know there very well could be I wonder if there is because of the fact that and this is going to sound like I disagree with the former and I don't but whether it's people are bored of that narrative now they've heard that we know that men kill women it's not shocking enough we know that men kill women we've banged that drum enough nothing's been done to fix it but people are bored of listening to that now so we need a different soundbite there's lots of things going around my head I wondered as well whether it was ok listen everyone just know that I'm a nice person and I mean this in a way and I'm exploring an idea I'm a good person but because of the I almost wonder if it's almost a bit of a marketing tactic because of the with the enthusiasm that's a bad word but the enthusiasm in which statistics about how many men die by suicide is picked up and run with whether it was almost a way of going ok well we can point out how many women die by suicide too then do you see what I mean? if that statistic is really hitting home and people are listening about male suicide rates maybe we need to do the same to demonstrate it in a different way and highlight how many women die by suicide because of and then point out that these are because of domestic violence or can be attributed to domestic violence yeah potentially I don't know I know what you're saying though like I do get it I just think that it's there's also an element of that again that book that I was reading on holiday and I sent the photo of a section to you being like we like Stephen Keer but it's where he says in it that it's like there was reporting on one of the cases that he works on which was like oh he killed her because she was going to leave him and his his take on that was that he thought that was sloppy reporting because it's attributing blame to her when actually what it should have said was you know insecure man kills wife because man kills woman and I wonder if it is a similar sort of thing where it's like well we don't want to we know that it's because of domestic violence we know that we can attribute these deaths to domestic violence but if we say that it's the oh well she couldn't deal with it so she's it is that whole it's her this is sad but she's done it rather than isn't he awful and a monster yeah he was awful but the reason she's dead is because of her she could have left oh everyone stop the world I want to get off I'm with you but anyway if that has made you all whetted your appetite yeah we've got a patreon we've got a patreon can we give us some money and we'll tell you some more really sad horrible stories that will make you just as angry as we are and for anyone keeping a record of how often I moan about him I've just had a text from Richard that says let me know when you're home please I thought he was at home where the fuck is he then okay fun oh goodness Richard Richard he's allowed to leave the flat I just didn't know he wasn't at home he's allowed to leave the flat but potentially some knowledge that he wasn't there would be quite nice before you just turn up home and go oh there's no one here great anyway yes we have here's all the nice bits because I think we need it after that we've got the patreon as Hannah mentioned we have we've got a website www.sinistersouthpod.com co.uk co.uk that's it got an email address sinistersouthpodcast at gmail.com yay she's got it we've got a facebook group run by the lovely lou the lovely lou the lovely lou we've got a tiktok do you know how one fucking looks at the tiktok do you know what though we've had a nice little upswing in views on the tiktok the floating heads it's really odd I do also need to address the elephant in the room which is that there hasn't been a floating head for some time but you're going to say that I was going to be in one that is rude that is fucking rude I will hit you with a handbag like Kim Kardashian does don't be rude no I was going to say that I haven't done a floating head for a while I apologise I must be less crap but yeah so that's over there we've got instagram as well and I think that's it there will be another patreon episode landing who knows we don't know what it's going to be about who knows when and what but we will release something at some point I'm sure so yeah I suppose that's it be fucking safe yeah please do look after each other scream and shout if you feel unsafe or scream into the void with us and send us a message to tell us and we'll scream in solidarity with you cool alright loves we love you we do and we'll see you next week we will see you later love you goodbye bye