The Man Who Never Was: Romance Scammer Fredrick Diji

Camberwell, South London. A quiet flat just off the main road. Nothing about it stood out—least of all the man inside. But for over a decade, Frederick Diji was running a romance scam so insidious, one victim sent him money for 14 years.

Using fake names, false promises, and a soft voice on the other end of the phone, Diji—and his accomplice Raquel Johnson—manipulated over 80 victims into handing over more than £400,000. Their targets? Mostly older gay men. People less likely to report it. Less likely to be believed.

This is a story of shame, silence and stolen futures. Of what happens when loneliness gets weaponised—and love becomes a trap.

Plus: Hannah’s got an 80s hen do, Rachel’s got a vendetta against fabric softener, and we both end up talking about the exes we probably should’ve blocked years ago.

Transcript

Ep 30 - Frederick Diji

(0:24 - 0:36)

Hello. Hi, I'm Rachel. I'm Hannah.

And this is the Sinister South podcast, a podcast all about the right wrongans who happen to live south of the river. There we go. There we go.

(0:37 - 0:47)

Wasn't sure where we were going to take that one. Yeah, I didn't know where it was going to be quite frank. It went, it happened.

It's all good. Oh, my love. How are you? How am I? I'm all right.

(0:48 - 1:01)

I'm in a good mood at the moment. That's very nice. Lovely.

Very lovely for you. It did have a slight air of I'm telling myself that this is what it is. No, I'm good.

(1:04 - 1:14)

What have I been up to? Not a lot. I've got quite a busy. Oh, it depends on this comes out, doesn't it? I always do this and then ruin the illusion that we record them just as we release them.

(1:15 - 1:22)

So this will come out not this week, next week. So I'll have been to a hen day. Yeah, I've got that coming up this weekend coming.

(1:23 - 1:24)

Exciting. And then. Yeah.

(1:24 - 1:32)

So I'll be by the time this comes out, I'll have done the Hendo and I'll be waiting for the wedding, which is the following weekend. Very exciting. Yes, we.

(1:34 - 1:56)

It's been it's really lovely. My friend's getting married. I don't know if I've mentioned this before, and it's very glamorously both of their second wedding.

Yes. And it's much smaller than the big who are and big affair and everything, but still really cool and really cute and really romantic. And we've all been kind of I think they only got engaged in.

(1:56 - 2:00)

I was going to say it wasn't that long ago. I think it was New Year's Eve. Wow.

(2:00 - 2:05)

But it feels like we've been waiting for this wedding to come around. Like this eight months we've been like, I'm ready now. I want this wedding now.

(2:06 - 2:12)

It'll be good fun because they're really good fun as a couple. Yeah. And they moved house and she calls it her Barbie dream house.

(2:13 - 2:22)

Like it's just, you know, when good things happen to good people and you're just like, oh, I like you guys and things seem really good. Yeah. So, yes, excited for the wedding.

(2:22 - 2:33)

I'm currently excited for the Hendo. I think probably by the time this goes out, I'll be on that Wednesday sitting there going, I regret all of my life choices. Every single choice will be regretted.

(2:33 - 2:48)

I had too much fun, et cetera, et cetera. But yeah, yeah, I suppose I could talk about it because I mean, I don't think she listens to this anyway. But the Hendo is a lot of it is a surprise and there's a theme.

(2:48 - 2:52)

And you know how I feel about fancy dress. I do. I think you've not even told me this yet.

(2:52 - 3:05)

So it's 80s thing, right? And I mean, obviously in a Hendo WhatsApp group. Yes. And it's all very like, oh, my God, I'm going as like 80s Barbie and I'm doing this.

(3:05 - 3:17)

I'm going as a Ghostbuster and I'm like, I've bought some sequins. Nice. And that'll do you.

That'll do. I might wear a blue eye shadow. I love it.

(3:18 - 3:19)

I love it. It's very. Yeah.

(3:19 - 3:30)

So my kind of 80s outfit is kind of I've got a stonewash, like a light denim jean, if it's or a short, depending on the weather. Weather. Yes.

(3:31 - 3:40)

I have a white boot with the jeans. I wouldn't wear them with shorts because I look insane. But that's quite an 80s thing in my head.

(3:40 - 3:53)

Yeah, I don't I haven't even Pinterested this. I've just been like, this is what's happening. Oh, I know.

This is how I feel about fancy dress. So I know. So this little sequin top thing, which is very not me.

(3:53 - 3:58)

Yeah. And it's quite skimpy, if anything. And I'm like, oh, new body, new rules, man.

(3:58 - 4:05)

I love it. And then I've got a blazer which used to fit me like a glove and now is so big. It looks like it's Richard's.

(4:06 - 4:12)

But it just means that the shoulder pads sit right out here. Like maybe that listeners. Sorry, but they sit right out here.

(4:12 - 4:22)

So in like the line looks quite 80s. And I'm going to do really like I've got the. Yeah, I don't know why I'm describing everything I've got.

(4:22 - 4:32)

But I've got a really thin curling wand like that's really, really pencil thin. So I'll do like a mess as if I've had a perm. Basically, I would do a massive hair.

(4:32 - 4:38)

And then it'd be very cool. Yeah, I'll go quite heavy on the 80s makeup. I love it.

(4:38 - 4:45)

Assume. So my my uncle had well for his surprise. I'll be kind.

(4:45 - 4:53)

30th was not his 30th. We had a surprise birthday party for him. And that was 80s themed.

(4:54 - 5:01)

And because my uncle is is quite this one uncle. It's quite a lot younger than when I was. I remember him still living with my nan and granddad.

(5:01 - 5:11)

Right. And going in like we would. Me and my cousins would like peer in and be really annoying at his bedroom door when he was listening to John Bon Jovi and all that as a teenager.

(5:12 - 5:31)

So, yeah, we had an 80s themed birthday party for him. And I just went full on like, I'll just go Susie in the Banshees. Nice.

Goth, which was great fun. There's lots of fun 80s things. But yeah, I get fancy dress is always one of those where it's just like either I'm really, really into it and I will go all fucking out.

(5:31 - 5:34)

Yeah. Or I can't be fucked. Well, I just didn't want to buy it.

(5:34 - 5:44)

Like, it's not as if I've got 80s themed party invites rolling in on a regular basis. Exactly. And I'm trying to be very conscious about spending.

(5:44 - 6:03)

And I wouldn't say it's necessarily a political decision about fast fashion as much as it is just impending doom and guilt of the state of the world and my own personal economy. Yeah. So I didn't want to like buy something for the sake of it.

(6:03 - 6:12)

So I'm being as creative as and I think I'll wear the sequin top again. I don't know where. But there is there is potential.

(6:12 - 6:37)

There is potential that I could wear it again. I like it. Well, we all know me and my bloody obsession with the websites that shan't be named either.

Genuinely, they're a game. Are you are you single handedly destroying the world? Yeah. Yeah.

It's all me. Goodbye, climate. Yeah.

As I said before, though, like the whole thing with fast fashion, I don't understand it. I don't understand fast fashion. Who buys something a genuine and this is a genuine thing.

(6:37 - 6:46)

I don't know why you would buy something where it wants and then never wear it again. That doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think it's necessarily that that's the problem.

(6:46 - 6:55)

It's the overproduction. Fair. So if you can sell something for four pounds, it has to have cost a pound to make.

(6:55 - 7:09)

Sure. And you make loads of them because you're going to sell it for pounds and loads of people are going to buy. Like, yeah.

So there's kind of a secular. Yeah. But see, my my ridiculousness is that, like, it doesn't matter if I've spent four pounds on a top or one hundred and four pounds on a top.

(7:09 - 7:14)

That I would love to see the hundred and four pound top. Oh, I've done that. I've bought a hundred and four pound tops.

(7:15 - 7:18)

Most of them have boning in them. Oh, fair. Yeah, I did forget about that.

(7:18 - 7:22)

Sorry. I take it back. But like I will wear it doesn't matter.

(7:23 - 7:30)

I will wear them both until they fall apart. Now, admittedly, the four pound one is likely to fall apart quicker. However, you may.

(7:30 - 7:43)

I don't know what I'm doing with my washing powder, but I don't get all the holes that all these other people go. Oh, God, by that, we've wholly within two weeks. How much are you washing it in two weeks? But what are you doing? Just like put it on maybe a less a spin, babe.

(7:43 - 8:07)

Do something like helping yourselves here. Do you use washing powder? Well, no, I use like liquid washing. Yeah.

No, apparently I saw this thing. Apparently we're all the reason that electronics don't last as long and like white goods don't last as long as because we're all using them in a modern way. But like actually the inner gubbins of a washing machine hasn't caught up technologically with what we're using.

(8:07 - 8:15)

So apparently, like the gels and the capsules and all of that clog up washing machines and we should all be using powder. Oh, nice thing. Like them good old days.

(8:15 - 8:19)

Good old days. Get me. But I don't really understand because I don't know which bit.

(8:19 - 8:24)

No, I don't see anything goes in which. But anyway, no, same. I just so I'm just like, hmm, hope for the best.

(8:25 - 8:32)

If it starts studying a bit too much, then I've done the wrong one. I have stopped using this is so boring. I have stopped using fabric softener though.

(8:32 - 8:48)

Why? Because apparently that is damaging to the structural integrity of one's clothing. Really? Apparently it's what causes clothing. One is what causes clothing to bubble and it's what causes clothing to get holes in, according to unverified sources.

(8:48 - 8:56)

Are your clothes really itchy? No, no, they've been fine. The only thing that I will put fabric softener in now is when I do a load of towels. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(8:56 - 9:02)

And I also will always doesn't matter what the weather is like. They always go in the tumble dryer because a towel that's been dried on the line. I don't have one.

(9:03 - 9:17)

Well, I do have a tumble dryer, but it broke years ago and it's not the place that we hide the cat food because it's the only place that Rupert can't open because he can open every cupboard door in the kitchen otherwise. So it's a very we keep cat food in our tumble dryer. But yeah, no, I will.

(9:17 - 9:26)

I will always tumble dry my towels because if you put them on the line, they just go stiff and hard. And I like a fluffy towel. Yeah, but shouldn't you? Anyway, enough about global warming.

(9:27 - 9:37)

No, if I was going to say, shouldn't you like part like dry them 90% of the way on the line and then fluff them up? Yes, 100%. But who the fuck has the time? My mother. I love that for your mother.

(9:37 - 9:42)

I do not. I don't know. It's no, I think this is actually like so they got a new like utility room.

(9:43 - 9:49)

Right. And my stepdad has become like very. Militant about the washing and the drying.

(9:50 - 9:57)

So like I think my little sister, when she's back from uni, has to like sneak in in the dead of night to put washing on on her own. Leave me alone, dad. Leave me alone.

(9:57 - 10:05)

Just want clean buns. Just leave me alone. Yeah, it's a bit like my nan, bless her, who used to iron everything after it came out of the wash.

(10:05 - 10:10)

Knickers, sheets, ironed knickers. Yeah, ironed knickers. Anyway, it's another life.

(10:10 - 10:13)

That is another. It really is another life. That's not for me.

(10:13 - 10:15)

It's not for you. Do not have time. No, exactly.

(10:16 - 10:23)

Who's ironing their duvet covers? Come on. Well, apparently millennials are have completely done away with ironing. Yeah, no one irons anymore.

(10:23 - 10:29)

Good, because millennials went, no, that's stupid. I have a steamer. I couldn't tell you the last time I used it, to be fair.

(10:29 - 10:46)

I used it for one of Will's shirts when he was going to work a little while ago. You're like Tradwife. I know.

I was being nice. I'd said something horrible and then I was like, oh, I should probably do something to make up for it. So I steamed his shirt, which sounds like a very bizarre euphemism.

(10:46 - 10:50)

But anyway, yeah, that was the last time. But I can't stand an iron. I just don't understand it.

(10:50 - 10:59)

People find it really therapeutic, don't they? Like stand and iron frayages and stuff. And I'm like, no, no, what's wrong with you? I need to get out. I don't like hoovering either.

(10:59 - 11:19)

Oh, no, hoovering, hoovering. I am an absolute demon with no one else touched my hoover. Because everyone.

Yeah. Because whenever anyone else like tries to like if Will's trying to be really helpful, because like my love language, like we are the stereotypical like couple where my love language is acts of service and his is physical touch. So he will try.

(11:19 - 11:25)

Like if I'm upset, he started to figure out that coming over and giving me a hug. I'm just going to punch you in the face. Don't do that.

(11:25 - 11:35)

Why are you touching me? But if you want me to be nice to you when I'm in a bad mood, do something around the house. And he's starting to pick that up a little bit. But the hoovering is one that he'll if he offers to do it.

(11:35 - 11:41)

I'm always like, just leave it. Leave it. My mum's a real like non physical touch person.

(11:41 - 11:51)

Yeah. And a little while ago, it was very scary at the time that she was she had to spend the night in hospital. She had what's called a thunderclap headache.

(11:51 - 12:14)

I remember this. And she ended up having to have a spinal tap. Yeah.

And like it's horrible, like a horrible procedure. Anyway, she's laying there on her side looking at me and I'm I don't know what came over me, but I took I was holding her hand and I was like rubbing her hand. And afterwards I went, what was more painful? You actually having a lumbar puncture or me rubbing you in that way? She was like, yeah, I just really wanted you to get off.

(12:16 - 12:25)

She took it like an absolute rock star. That's like that woman did not flinch. No, I can't.

No, none of that. None of that. It's part of the reason why when I had my kids, I was just like, fuck it.

(12:25 - 12:31)

I'll just do it natural. Because the idea of having an epidural, no. I mean, I say this like I had a chance.

(12:31 - 12:40)

They slipped out. I was going to say like far too quick for any of that. When the doctor turns around to me and we was going because she even had pethidine and genuinely, Travers, this was the response of my doctor.

(12:42 - 12:55)

Ah, no. Good. Good.

Great for that. Good. Oh, yes.

Anyway, how are you? How am I? That's where we were. Yeah. That boring fucking chap.

(12:56 - 13:05)

We say this, though. I know. I know.

It's like, you know, anyway, it's just who we are as people. It's the minutiae of our lives. Exactly.

How am I? I'm good. I had another child's birthday party recently. Indeed.

(13:06 - 13:21)

Which you came to. It ended with me having my fingerprints taken. It did.

It did. And we've got photos that I shall share on Instagram. Yeah, no, she had a detective themed birthday party, which is not genuinely as much as everyone thinks that like I'm just living vicariously through my children.

(13:21 - 13:27)

No, she loved it. She was all about it. I mean, it was fantastic, to be fair.

(13:27 - 13:38)

It was really good. If anyone is in the South London slash Essex area and wants to have a detective themed party, they do for adults as well. Do they? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(13:38 - 13:49)

They do it for corporate away days and stuff. Oh, man, we should do that. It's cool, right? But they are called fuck it.

Fuck doing a live show. We should just do a massive one of that with all the Travers. Done.

(13:50 - 14:00)

Done. Can I be the dead body? Because that's probably the least I'm still a main character. But everyone you want everyone to be standing in a circle staring at you.

(14:00 - 14:09)

I can close my eyes and I don't have to interact. I can't say anything stupid if I'm dead. Well, which is the motto I live by.

(14:11 - 14:33)

But yeah, if anyone is in South London or Essex and is in need of some sort of detective themed party in their life, they call crime scene investigations and investigations. I guess it's a crime scene investigations, and they are a small company. I'm just trying to get that email out to make sure I've got it.

(14:33 - 14:45)

No, I lie. They could crime scene challenge and the parties are called crime scene investigation parties, but they are all actual serving. Yeah, policeman or police women.

(14:46 - 14:53)

They are police women who are mostly serving over in East London. I was very upset when she was telling her stories. Yeah, I was like, damn it.

(14:53 - 15:00)

So what are you doing? What are you doing? And yeah, she used to be a teacher. So that was my favorite bit when she was like, I can arrest you. And I used to be a teacher.

(15:00 - 15:14)

So I will use my voice if I need to to a room full of eight year olds. But yeah, if anyone wants to go and check them out, because they are awesome. So we did that.

Yes, that was very fun. It was lots of yeah, there was a dead body and they had to figure out the clues. And then they had like there was a case file.

(15:14 - 15:21)

It was very good. All sorts. And then we did fingerprints and figuring out whether you've got a loop fingerprint or a world or all of these things.

(15:21 - 15:26)

It was very, very good fun. So that was that was my Saturday. I left incredibly overstimulated.

(15:27 - 15:33)

Yeah, I did. It was the moment that I went, you're welcome to come back to mine, but you're also welcome to fuck off. I literally cannot get in that car fast enough.

(15:34 - 15:52)

And if any of you try to talk to me any more than you already have, I will cry. So let's just buy. Yeah, I got home and I was like, which was like, did you have fun? I was like, yeah, you're right.

Yeah. It's difficult. Lots of children in one room at one time.

(15:52 - 16:08)

No, just let me sit in the dark room and rock backwards and forwards. I'm just going to start my phone for a while. Yeah.

Yeah, it's it's it's fun. But yeah, it was it was good. And then I had sleepovers because I'm a masochist.

(16:09 - 16:16)

And and, you know, it's big and invites her cousins over. And she did it last year. So it's becoming a bit of a tradition.

(16:16 - 16:26)

So she did it this year as well, just to kind of elongate the birthday. And we went and she got her nails did the next day. And we went to an ice cream parlor and did some shopping.

(16:27 - 16:35)

Yeah, it was very sweet. So, yeah, just recovering from my weekend of children, which is good. But yeah, by the time this comes out, it will have been a few weeks ago.

(16:35 - 16:38)

We've been all new. So shut up, Rachel. Stop banging on about it.

(16:38 - 16:50)

Fucking hell. Anyone would think you like your kids. God.

Oh, dear. But yeah, other than that, all good, mate. Good.

Oh, good. We've been walking together. We have been very proud of you.

(16:50 - 16:55)

Thank you. I'm proud of me. I'm not a visual medium.

(16:55 - 17:03)

Can't see the cute face. Neither can I. I was about to say, if that's what one could call it. Yeah, no, it's been good walking with you.

(17:03 - 17:13)

And the whole of last week, I got my bum out of my chair and walked not always as far as I could have done. But at least that's not the point. At least got my body moving.

(17:13 - 17:16)

Yeah. Distance isn't the goal. It's just doing it is the goal.

(17:16 - 17:22)

Yeah, exactly. So for you, for me, I have very hard and fast rules. Oh, I'm aware.

(17:23 - 17:28)

I'm aware. When we got to our destination, he went, No, not enough. We're going to do another lap.

(17:29 - 17:35)

OK, I'm very unfit. Come on. We had a very deep chat.

(17:35 - 17:38)

We did. It was nice, though. It was very good.

(17:38 - 18:05)

It's very good chats. Hannah is very wise. I'm going to share.

It's not my knowledge. I just shared it with you in a way that was like, I'm really wise. But I heard someone else say on a podcast recently, just about like so everyone kind of the way you have your internal narrative or like when you talk about your mental health and it's like, I need to get better at handling my depression or I need to get better at handling my handling my anxiety or whatever it is.

(18:06 - 18:12)

And actually, there's a school of thought with. No, you're great at managing your depression. You're great at managing your anxiety.

(18:12 - 18:29)

You know exactly what to do and how to cope with the fact that you've got these unwell spells or however it manifests for you. What you're not good at is handling joy, is handling happiness. So why have you why are we spending so much energy on managing the.

(18:30 - 18:54)

The depression and the anxiety that we're not then spending a reciprocal amount on managing the joy and managing the happiness and how you find that peace and what what building blocks you need, because you've got building blocks for how you get yourself out of a of a dark place. You've got building blocks for how you can calm an anxious mind. Why don't we have the same efforts in building blocks for this brings me joy? This brings me happiness.

(18:54 - 19:05)

This brings me peace. This brings me contentment, like whatever it is. And it's been something that I have been now pondering quite seriously.

(19:06 - 19:20)

I guess I suppose it links back to a couple of episodes ago when we were talking about, you know, I don't know what I like as well. It's very indicative that it all feels very involved in that. Like I don't know what I like and I don't know what makes me happy.

(19:20 - 19:34)

Yeah, but like, but why am I not focused on that then? Why am I like, well, I need to do something to not be depressed anymore. But OK, what other than managing the depression? Like what else could you do to manage the happiness? Well, you see me a lot. Yeah.

(19:34 - 19:44)

I was going to say that was the thing you said last time, just reminded me. Yes, Rachel, I love you. I just need to be everyone's favorite.

(19:45 - 19:52)

And yeah, no, and it was very profound and very true. And it has made me start to do that thing. I don't like doing thinking.

(19:54 - 20:07)

Which is always a dangerous thing, because it either ends up with me making some really outlandish life decisions that you spend all of 20 minutes doing, and then it's all back to normal. Yeah. Look, she is what she is.

(20:08 - 20:28)

OK, 36 years on this planet ain't going to change now. We just come to terms with the fact that I am a mess. It's all good.

It's all good. And you've got a story for me today. I do.

Is it a good one? I mean, no one dies. So your mum will hate it. She really will.

(20:29 - 20:35)

God, it's still it's very frustrating. Fair, fair, fair, fair. But yeah.

(20:35 - 20:39)

I'll I'll dive in. Awesome. I'll get myself comfortable.

(20:40 - 20:47)

It was this case was featured on Netflix's Love Rats. Ah, yes. And there are.

(20:47 - 20:55)

Or, you know, as always, the the show notes will be no. Yeah. Yeah.

Something like that. Yeah. We know what you meant.

(20:55 - 21:01)

Fuck it. There'll be some things in some places. Preferences will be in the show notes.

(21:01 - 21:08)

There we go. The documentary is good. It is good.

(21:08 - 21:18)

And it probably talks about more of the individual victims than I have. Right. But I know I'm caveating.

(21:18 - 21:28)

But and I do talk about anima and anonymity, which is really useful because I can say it. Yeah. And why it's important.

(21:28 - 21:44)

But there's basically the documentary features either some actual victims or actors playing the victims. And fair play. They have waived their right to anonymity.

(21:44 - 21:57)

Yeah. Then I'm good. But in all like the legal paperwork that I could find in the court records and stuff like that, they they're then being anonymous.

(21:57 - 22:01)

Yeah. Was really important, really highlighted. So I've kept them anonymous.

(22:02 - 22:07)

Oh, for fuck's sake. I have also kept them anonymous. Fair, fair, fair, fair.

(22:07 - 22:17)

I'm going to do my best to talk with my teeth in. But Trevor's we all know what that means. This is going to be a four hour record for a 20 minute episode.

(22:20 - 22:28)

So here we go. Camberwell, South London, a quiet flat just off the main road. Nothing about it stood out.

(22:28 - 23:00)

Not the building and not the man inside. But from this unremarkable corner of South London, Frederick Diggie was orchestrating a romance scam so long running, so emotionally entangled that one victim sent him money for over 14 years. Whoa.

On dating apps like Tinder, Gaydar and Match.com, he was something else entirely. A successful, sensitive man with a complicated life and a heart full of longing. His targets were mostly older gay men who were often isolated or estranged from their families.

(23:01 - 23:21)

With promises of love and a life together, he drew them in. And then little by little, he emptied their life savings. God.

By the time police finally knocked on his door, Diggie, along with an accomplice, Raquel Johnson, had extracted over 400,000 pounds from his victims. Some lost everything. Others never told a soul.

(23:22 - 23:32)

The shame, the grief and the silence were all part of the trap. This isn't just a story of fraud. It's a story of extremely insidious grooming and coercive control.

(23:32 - 23:45)

It's a story of how fantasy, especially the kind sold through a screen, can feel more real than reality itself. So who was Diggie? Yeah. Apparently, I can't say Frederick.

(23:46 - 23:50)

Frederick. Frederick. Anyway, both of those are correct.

(23:50 - 24:00)

Lovely. Well, at this time, very little is known about his real life. OK, from reports that I could find, Diggie was mild mannered and polite.

(24:01 - 24:21)

He wasn't flashy, nor did he have anything even closely resembling a prolific social media presence or a face like he wasn't a face in Camberwell or South London in general or anything like that. But to the people he targeted and whoever. But to the people he targeted, he was whoever he needed to be.

(24:22 - 24:33)

Right. A grieving partner, a businessman stuck abroad, someone with frozen assets or tangled legal issues. He could be vulnerable, distant, intense and often all three in rotation.

(24:34 - 24:47)

But crucially, he was fucking convincing. Diggie began targeting his victims as early as 2005. He refined his stories over time, learning which emotional levers worked best.

(24:47 - 24:57)

His scams weren't slapdash or opportunistic. They were calculated. He built false identities, which often had some elements of truth woven into them to make them believable.

(24:57 - 25:10)

And he used those personas to foster long term emotional, emotional entanglements. And he didn't do it alone. Raquel Johnson, also from Camberwell, as far as I could find, played an active role in the scam.

(25:11 - 25:35)

She sometimes posed as a family member or colleague, adding credibility to cover stories and lies. She helped handle the money. And in some cases, victims were persuaded to send money directly to her accounts.

Right. This was a deliberate tactic to make the whole scam feel more legitimate. Together, Diggie and Johnson formed what police would later describe as a professional and persistent fraud operation.

(25:35 - 25:44)

But it wasn't just money they stole. They stole years of people's lives, emotional energy, ability to trust and fall in love, and they stole futures. Yeah.

(25:46 - 25:53)

So first side quest of the episode for you. Love it. Love it.

Love it. Is how catfishing evolved. Oh, OK.

(25:54 - 26:10)

So we often think of catfishing as a modern phenomenon born with apps and filtered selfies. But its roots go quite deep, quite a lot deeper than that. Long before Tinder and Grindr, deception thrived in the gray space between loneliness and connection.

(26:11 - 26:32)

In the early 2000s, dating platforms like Gaydar, Match.com and MSN Messenger offered LGBTQ plus people in particular something precious, a private judgment free space to explore love and identity. But they also open the door to new risks. In these early digital spaces, trust had to be extended quickly.

(26:33 - 26:49)

There were no video calls, no verification tools and plenty of reasons for someone to stay faceless. For many users, especially older gay men who had spent decades navigating secrecy and coded language. These platforms were both a lifeline and a potential trap.

(26:50 - 27:03)

By the time Diggie began operating in 2005, the blueprint for online deception was already in place. What made him dangerous wasn't innovation, it was patience. His scams didn't rely on crude tactics or typos.

(27:04 - 27:20)

They were shaped for the times, long form, emotionally persuasive, designed for platforms where people were used to waiting days between messages and filling in the blanks with hope. As technology evolved, so did methods. Video calls could be dodged.

(27:20 - 27:28)

New phone numbers, email addresses and fake profiles were really easy to generate. Scammers got slicker. The lies got smoother.

(27:28 - 27:45)

And for many victims, the digital space still offered something their offline lives lacked. Attention, affection and the promise of being accepted. Today, catfishing is a cultural shorthand, a Netflix plot device, a tabloid curiosity.

(27:46 - 27:58)

But in the hands of people like Frederick Diggie, it's something much darker. Not a quirky dating mishap, but a form of sustained psychological harm. And the platforms, whether they knew it or not, gave him the tools.

(28:00 - 28:35)

So how does this all work? What makes sensible, reasonable people fall for romance scams? Picture this. A message pops up on screen from a dating app you've been half-heartedly swiping through for ages with very little luck or interaction. It's harmless at first, a simple greeting, maybe even quite maybe a bit bland.

Yeah. But through a series of messages, things deepen, shifting from casual curiosity into something far more personal. Before long, each message brings a jolt of hope, of excitement and connection.

(28:36 - 29:04)

You get flutters of anticipation waiting for replies to your messages. What is happening is that you're starting to warm to a stranger on the Internet. And a scammer like Diggie is cultivating an entire emotional world for you to inhabit.

Yeah. For the men who found him online, Diggie became the ideal partner and the promise of a brighter future. Using the platforms, Diggie adopted meticulously crafted personas, each tailored to appeal to his targets.

(29:06 - 29:24)

Sometimes he was Ricardo, an international businessman temporarily stuck overseas. Other times he was Jay, a grieving widower trying desperately to heal and find new love. Occasionally he was Andre, a sensitive and empathetic young man perpetually facing financial setbacks beyond his control.

(29:25 - 29:47)

Each version of Diggie was carefully designed, a blend of emotional availability and subtle vulnerability. He understood precisely how to mirror his victim's desires and insecurities slowly and deliberately, creating a dependence that went far beyond mere attraction. Over weeks, months and tragically even years, he used emotional intimacy as leverage.

(29:47 - 29:59)

Once trust was established, a request would come, always reluctantly at first, even in some cases with the victims believing it was their organic idea to help him. Right. Each request was framed as temporary.

(30:00 - 30:13)

It was a small loan to resolve a crisis, just a short term fix. But these crisis multiplied, becoming permanent fixtures of the fictional lives he invented. And behind this web of deceit stood Raquel Johnson.

(30:14 - 30:27)

Johnson lent authenticity to the scam by stepping into various trusted roles. Like I said earlier, like a family member or business associate. She would reassure more hesitant victims or gently encourage further payments.

(30:28 - 30:52)

Her calm, steady voice provided a believable counterpoint to Diggie's carefully staged emotional turmoil. So together they preyed not on ignorance or being gullible, but on loneliness, isolation and the human desire to connect. And for many, the damage that they inflicted would prove long lasting and it would reshape their entire lives.

(30:53 - 31:15)

But how exactly did they maintain control even as their demands escalated? To understand that, we have to look deeper into the sinister psychology beneath the surface. Oh, so another bit of a side quest. Love it.

The language of the lie. Oh, I'm here for this. So when we talk about romance scams, it's easy to picture a clumsy hustle.

(31:16 - 31:22)

Misspelled emails, transparent sob stories, obvious red flags. I'm the Prince of Nigeria. Like, you know, we've all seen them.

(31:23 - 31:38)

But real manipulation is rarely so crude. Romance fraud thrives precisely because it exploits the powerful psychological dynamics inherent to online relationships. Diggie didn't just lie, he weaponized intimacy.

(31:39 - 32:01)

Experts in psychological abuse call this coercive control. A gradual erosion of a victim's reality, often executed subtly through carefully choreographed emotional swings. Victims become trapped not because they're weak, but because they're the emotional reward of the promised future, of the affection of validation always seems just within reach.

(32:02 - 32:22)

For example, Diggie's communication often followed recognizable psychological patterns. So there's idealization or love bombing. Early stages of intense, flattering attention, constant messaging, affection and extravagant promises overwhelming the victim's defenses and creating rapid emotional attachment.

(32:22 - 32:34)

Then comes dependency formation. So once attachment is secured, Diggie inserted minor crisis, small financial needs or emotional emergencies. These requests were framed as moments of trust.

(32:35 - 32:43)

Quote, you're the only one that can help me. Deepening that emotional investment. Then came the intermittent reinforcement.

(32:44 - 33:08)

Psychology shows we become most deeply attached when affection is given unpredictably. Did you use silence strategically, vanishing just long enough to make his victims doubt themselves, only to reappear with intense emotional declarations and victims soon craved the relief that his messages brought, even as they drained their bank accounts. God, this feels very familiar.

(33:10 - 33:28)

And then you've got the sunk cost fallacy. So the longer a victim stayed in the relationship, the harder it became to leave. Once someone has invested significant emotion, time and money, cutting losses means accepting a profound personal betrayal and admitting that the person they loved never existed.

(33:29 - 33:39)

And the psychological pain of facing that truth often outweighs the fear of further financial loss. And it's that like, I'm not an idiot. I didn't fall for it.

(33:39 - 33:57)

I know this is real, like that lie to yourself as well to maintain your own pride. I know it well. And so this careful psychological orchestration is precisely what allowed Digi to maintain control for years and over one victim incredibly for more than a decade.

(33:58 - 34:10)

It wasn't merely deception. It was systematic emotional abuse played out through carefully chosen words and meticulously managed silences. So the 14 year victim.

(34:11 - 34:21)

It was 14 years. One hundred thousand pounds. Because a man in his mid 50s from Surrey, whose life became intertwined with someone he believed was called Riccardo.

(34:22 - 34:36)

He was unknowingly trapped in a fiction of someone else's creation from 2005 until 2019. He first encountered Riccardo on the dating site Gaydar. Riccardo was charming, thoughtful and engaging.

(34:36 - 34:52)

A businessman frequently traveling overseas, always sincere, always just slightly out of reach. Over months and years, the emotional intimacy between them deepened. Riccardo's crisis, crises, became urgent and increasingly desperate.

(34:53 - 35:18)

Locked bank accounts, legal entanglements abroad and sudden health scares. When doubt set in, Riccardo's stories grew more complex, supported by elaborate interventions from his supposed sister, a woman named Rachel, who was in reality Raquel Johnson from Camberwell. Johnson phoned and emailed reassuring and comforting, expertly quelling suspicion and confusion.

(35:19 - 35:30)

It was only in 2019, following a detailed financial tracing investigation by Surrey police, that the scale of the deception became higher. It became heartbreakingly clear. Riccardo never existed.

(35:31 - 35:38)

He had been meticulously maintained fiction. He had been a meticulously maintained fiction, sorry. Played by a Camberwell fraudster.

(35:39 - 35:49)

God. What had been lost went far beyond money. It was trust, dignity and 14 years spent loving someone who was never really there.

(35:49 - 35:56)

Bless him. So I've got some other victims as publicly recorded, just to give the scale. Mm-hmm.

(35:57 - 36:14)

Another victim was a London-based professional in his early 40s, who lost approximately £40,000 across two agonising years of carefully scripted emotional turmoil. He described feelings of shame and humiliation that prevented him from seeking help sooner. Mm-hmm.

(36:14 - 36:39)

There was a man in his mid-30s, working in finance and living in Kent, and was similarly targeted through Match.com. He handed over £20,000 over several months, believing he was helping his new partner through a genuine hardship. Police records later confirmed that at least 80 victims had been identified. Their ages ranging from their mid-30s to late 60s, most living across London and the home counties.

(36:40 - 36:52)

Individual losses ranged from several thousand pounds to six figures, and many remained silent about their ordeal for years, paralysed by embarrassment, shame and fear. So I kind of have another side-questy thing. Yeah.

(36:52 - 37:06)

Which is why we, me and you, respect anonymity. Right. In romance fraud cases, especially those involving LGBTQ plus communities, privacy isn't merely respectful, it's vital.

(37:07 - 37:33)

Many victims face a double barrier, the shame of financial exploitation, combined with fears around their sexuality becoming public knowledge. For some older gay men in particular, this fear is deeply rooted, born of a generation that grew up under far less tolerant conditions. The courage required to report these crimes is significant, and many victims understandably opt to remain anonymous to protect their dignity, privacy and personal safety.

(37:34 - 37:53)

Surrey Police, in fact, repeatedly stressed the importance of victim anonymity. For God's sake. It not only encourages others to come forward, helping bring perpetrators like Digi and Johnson to justice, but also acknowledges the profound psychological damage that public exposure could exasperate.

(37:54 - 38:05)

And talking of Surrey Police... There we go. They were instrumental in unravelling the web of lies. Romance fraud investigations are notoriously complex.

(38:05 - 38:26)

By the time Surrey Police were alerted in 2019, Frederick Digi's deception had run undetected for more than a decade. It began with that victim from Surrey, the man who lost 14 years and over £100,000 to Riccardo. Finally realising the extent of the deception, he approached the police tentatively, fearful of judgement.

(38:27 - 38:38)

Surrey Police immediately recognised the magnitude of the case, but suspicion alone wasn't enough. They needed concrete proof. Transactions, messages, digital footprints that would hold up in court.

(38:39 - 38:54)

Their first move was based around an IP address that came to light during searches through the victim's digital relationship with Riccardo. That led to a carefully coordinated raid at Digi and Johnson's address in Camberwell. The raid, which was initially hopeful, proved frustrating.

(38:55 - 39:13)

Detectives briefly detained both suspects, questioning them at length, but there simply wasn't enough immediate evidence to keep them in custody. Reluctantly, the officers had to release Digi and Johnson back into the community. But rather than give up, investigators regrouped, meticulously building their case over several months.

(39:14 - 39:22)

They traced money to an insanely meticulous level. Wow. And they went kind of transaction by transaction by transaction.

(39:23 - 39:55)

Digital forensic experts carefully analysed the communications, every phone call, text message and online interaction, assembling a jigsaw puzzle of emotional manipulation and financial exploitation. When police finally had enough evidence to rearrest, they returned to the Camberwell address, hoping to find both suspects again. Yeah.

This time, however, only Raquel Johnson was at home. Detectives faced a new challenge, locating Digi, who had seemingly vanished. Their best chance was to persuade Johnson to cooperate.

(39:56 - 40:07)

Hours passed, intense negotiations until finally Johnson agreed to call Digi on behalf of detectives. Oh. She phoned, he answered.

(40:07 - 40:15)

She handed the phone to the detective. The detective explained the situation and gently, but firmly encouraged Digi to surrender himself. Right.

(40:15 - 40:36)

Nobody expected him to comply. Yet, astonishingly, after like days, it wasn't long at all. Right.

Digi walked into a South London police station of his own accord and voluntarily surrendered himself into police custody. Oh, I know. I mean, good.

Yeah. But like if I was him, fucking insane decision. Exactly.

(40:37 - 40:40)

What are you doing? I have no idea where you are. Just keep running. Fucking run.

(40:41 - 40:50)

But no, because you're a prick. You are a prick. Anyway, that moment obviously was pivotal, not just for the investigation, but also psychologically.

(40:50 - 41:10)

It hinted at the weight of guilt, inevitability or exhaustion that must have finally overtaken him. Now, with both suspects securely in custody and a mountain of meticulously gathered evidence, the CPS prepared to take Digi and Johnson to trial. The case was solid.

(41:10 - 41:28)

Justice seemed assured. But beyond this legal victory lay deeper questions about emotional manipulation, digital deception and the hidden cost of coercive control. In December of 2022, Digi and Johnson appeared at Guildford Crown Court charged with fraud by false representation and money laundering.

(41:29 - 41:50)

The prosecution laid out a meticulous case emphasising the emotional manipulation at the heart of their crimes, backed by months of painstaking police work and victim testimonies. Digi and Johnson initially pleaded not guilty, maintaining their innocence despite overwhelming evidence. But as witness after witness took the stand, some still visibly traumatised.

(41:51 - 42:10)

The court heard clearly how damaging the scam had been. The victim from Surrey, the 14 year victim, spoke of humiliation and profound loss of self-trust. Another victim, who had lost 40 grand, detailed the devastating impact on his mental health and the other relationships in his life.

(42:11 - 42:21)

Each victim painted a really clear and disturbing portrait of abuse through digital deceit. The court also heard a... And this is wild. Right.

(42:21 - 42:37)

But the court also heard a digital recording of Digi personally explaining exactly how to undertake the scam in extreme detail. What? The recording was a training manual, which indicated Frederick was actively recruiting accomplices. Oh.

(42:38 - 43:07)

I don't think they ever really worked out... They knew one person had sent it to, but they couldn't really see that that person had done anything. But it was kind of like... It was almost as if he was prepping to send it... really, like, max. So during the trial, prosecutors highlighted the calculated nature of the scam, the use of false personas, carefully crafted emotional manipulation, and the deliberate exploitation of trust and isolation.

(43:08 - 43:22)

Importantly, they framed the crimes not simply as financial fraud, but as an insidious form of psychological abuse. After hearing all the evidence, the jury reached their verdict swiftly. Both Digi and Johnson were found guilty on all charges.

(43:24 - 43:57)

At sentencing, Judge Robert Fraser underscored the emotional harm inflicted, describing the scheme as a, Digi was identified as the orchestrator and was sentenced to eight years in prison. Raquel Johnson, whose complicity was clear, but role secondary, received a sentence of three years and nine months. The sentencing provided some justice for the victims, but questions obviously lingered.

(43:57 - 44:38)

Could the law fully capture the depth of emotional and psychological damage caused by long-term digital fraud? Could victims rebuild their lives in the aftermath? And would the punishments deter others from similar manipulations? Digi and Johnson's convictions represented not just a legal victory, but an important public acknowledgement of the severity of romance fraud. Yet the victim's scars remained, an enduring reminder that emotional exploitation can be as destructive as physical harm, even if it leaves no visible wounds. So again, rather than side quests, these are almost kind of like tendrils.

(44:38 - 44:53)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like it. But it's the psychological harm beyond the scam. So when we talk about romance fraud, we focus primarily on the money, how much was lost, and whether the victim ever got it back.

(44:53 - 45:14)

But the emotional and psychological damage rarely features in headlines, and yet is often the most enduring part. Romance scams don't just con people out of their savings, they corrupt the very architecture of human trust. Victims aren't simply tricked, they're emotionally invested in a version of love that feels real, because for them, it was real.

(45:14 - 45:30)

The brain responds to emotional connection, whether it's happening in a room or on a screen. When that connection is severed, it triggers grief. And when that connection turns out to be fiction, it creates something even more complicated, a collision between bereavement and betrayal.

(45:31 - 45:51)

For many, the aftermath is, aftermath? Is defined not by anger, but by shame. Victims often blame themselves, not just for the financial loss, but for being too trusting, and for not seeing the signs, and for being lonely in the first place. This self-directed shame can spiral into depression, anxiety, and withdrawal.

(45:52 - 46:11)

Some stop dating altogether, others lose confidence in their ability to judge character, second-guessing every single interaction. A few lose relationships with friends and family, who, when the truth is revealed, respond with disbelief or mockery. And then there's the dissonance.

(46:12 - 46:32)

Victims are left with years of memories that no longer belong to them. Messages saved, photos shared, gifts sent, every word of affection now recontextualized as a tool of manipulation. This disorientation is a form of psychological rupture, a kind of emotional gaslighting that doesn't end with the arrest or with the prison sentence.

(46:33 - 46:59)

It stays in the inbox, it echoes in those quiet moments, and it lingers in the question, was any of it real? Psychologists who work with survivors of romance fraud often compare it to recovering from cult-like experience. The scammer doesn't just steal affection, they engineer emotional dependency, sometimes over years and months. And this isn't naivety, it's your survival mode hijacked.

(47:00 - 47:18)

In some cases, survivors go through what is known as ambiguous loss, a term used when someone grieves something that isn't entirely gone or never existed. It's the mourning of a person they never actually met. A relationship that only ever existed in the mind, but was no less meaningful to them at the time.

(47:19 - 47:41)

And legal systems still struggle to quantify this kind of harm. There are no sentencing guidelines for emotional time theft, no frameworks for calculating what it means to lose a decade of imagined intimacy. But those who experience it know the pain of being deceived into love can cut just as deeply as the pain of love lost, and the recovery, if it comes, takes years.

(47:43 - 47:59)

Frederick Didgeridoo didn't just steal money, he stole futures imagined in good faith, years of companionship, hope, and emotional safety. What makes his crime so disturbing is not only their scale, but their intimacy. He didn't break in, he was invited in.

(47:59 - 48:15)

And once inside, he built entire identities designed to keep his victims there. This case isn't only about one man or one flat in Camberwell, it's about what happens when loneliness is exploited and love becomes a weapon. And it's a reminder that not all abuse leaves bruises.

(48:16 - 48:26)

Some of it speaks softly, types fast, and disappears when you look too closely. But it's damage, as we've seen, can last a lifetime. Oh, mate.

(48:27 - 48:29)

Well done. Thank you. That was very good.

(48:29 - 48:37)

And I saw Love Rats, and I liked that there was stuff that you were saying that I hadn't heard. Yes. I was quite surprised.

(48:37 - 48:44)

The 14-year-old victim's not really mentioned all that much and stuff in it. No, it's interesting. Very well done.

(48:44 - 48:48)

Thank you very much for that. Yeah, it's not a nice one, is it? Your mum's gonna hate it, though. She is gonna hate it.

(48:48 - 48:53)

It's quite dry. I don't think it's dry. There's just no murder in it.

(48:53 - 49:07)

But I think that that's, in a weird way, it's actually all the more devastating because you kind of, you have to live with the ramifications of it. I just kept thinking of those, and it is, he was targeting older gay men, or just gay men, some of them in their mid-30s. That's not old.

(49:08 - 49:20)

It's not old. Thank you very much. But I just keep thinking of them after the dust had settled of the court trial and everything, and just going back to their lives and being like, well, fuck.

(49:21 - 49:30)

Yeah. It's so interesting because it must be like... Over 80 victims, and some of them were then forced to come out to their families. Yeah, it's mad.

(49:31 - 49:35)

So there's a couple of things that I was gonna say. No, no, no. A couple of things.

(49:35 - 49:58)

So the first thing was when I was scrolling through my phone, I wasn't being rude. I was looking for the name of this historian that I heard at a conference, because I'm very exciting. And his name is Matt Cook, and he is a, where is he? He's a Jonathan Cooper Professor of the History of Sexuality at Oxford University.

(49:59 - 50:02)

Oh, you bought me his book? I bought you his book. Yes. I haven't read it yet, but I will.

(50:02 - 50:33)

Yeah, he was the keynote at a conference I went to. I went to it for work purposes, but I am also a massive history geek, so I secretly love every second of it. But he did a whole keynote at the conference where he was talking about the portable closet and the idea that for many, especially in the world that we live in now, where LGBTQ plus, don't get me wrong, there's still a hell of a long way to go, but we are a lot more open, a lot more accepting.

(50:33 - 51:11)

There's a lot more tolerance than there's ever been. There's a lot more tolerance and understanding. But he was saying that he did this big case study where he got loads of oral history, and it was looking into the lives of closeted gay men in the sort of 60s and 70s, moving into the 80s and 90s, about sort of like their coming out and what that meant, and about how actually you would assume that coming out is something and being able to live your true identity and being able to be who you are without secrets, without, oh no, that's just, he just lives with his friend, or any of that.

(51:12 - 51:25)

You would kind of assume that that's the way that people would want to have lived and have always wanted to live. And while I think that now, because we are so much more tolerant, again, not as tolerant as we could be in some areas. And it does feel like we're going backwards sometimes.

(51:25 - 51:42)

I know, yeah, but people are free to express themselves. They are free to come out and they are free to be that. But he was saying that for a lot of these men, these older gay men who had lived in a world where it wasn't open, to suddenly be out was quite a shocking thing to them and their psyches.

(51:43 - 51:56)

And he was saying that there was this massive loss of community because people who would be, they would have gone to the gay bar down the road, or you would have gone to the pub down the road. And everyone knew that that pub- Yeah, unspoken. It was very unspoken.

(51:56 - 52:18)

It was very much like, no, we won't go in there, but oh, he goes to the Raising Crown, you know, that sort of thing. But there would be this kind of unspoken secret, but it was like you're in a club that you're part of, that you recognize- So you had some camaraderie in that. Exactly, so you recognize yourself in these other men that are in this situation.

(52:18 - 52:39)

And then when they became gay clubs, and it became quite open, to be seen in them was suddenly to put a label on yourself where maybe you didn't want that label, because you suddenly couldn't go to the Raising Crown. You had the label before, but it was kind of a bit transparent on you. Whereas now it was like, you've got to wear it on your forehead, and it's got a neon light above it, and it's in your face.

(52:39 - 53:24)

And he was talking predominantly, he said there was a really interesting one where he said, I'm sorry, it's kind of off topic, but it links to that idea of the being forced to be out, was that actually gay black men in the UK, and I think in his, there's one of his books, I will find the name and I'll put it in the show notes, but he talks about a black community in, I think it's Leeds or Huddersfield, somewhere like that. And basically there was this man who is of African descent, and he was saying how when he started, he would go to bars and there would be, again, you would always know, apparently there was this term or phrase within the community where they'd say, oh, he's a bit funny. And that was the term or phrase.

(53:24 - 53:46)

That's how Friend of Dorothy came about. Exactly, so it's like that became the phrase that you would use. But one of these men was saying that when gay bars became a thing, he wouldn't go to gay bars, he would carry on going to the bars that were more for his race, because his race was also important to him, it's not just his sexuality, he's not just a gay man, he's also a black man.

(53:47 - 54:01)

But he would find that going to gay bars, suddenly he's this exotic thing that- Fetishized. Yeah, so it was almost fetishized. And it's just fascinating, this whole history of, and the dichotomy of it all, and like, where do I sit then? Exactly.

(54:01 - 54:21)

And when it is segregated like that, because these places are kind of underground, am I gay or am I black? Yeah, exactly, and can you be both? Do I have to choose tonight whether I wanna be gay or black? Exactly, it's fascinating. It's fucking, yeah. But the whole, the reason I brought him up was, and again, anyone go, honestly, I met him, he's lovely, he's really, really lovely, I sat and had dinner with him.

(54:21 - 54:38)

So anyone who wants to go and shove some money his way and buy his book, do. But just go and read his history, it's brilliant. But it made me think of when you were saying about the fact that there were these men who wouldn't come out, wouldn't talk about it, for the shame of being conned, but then also kind of like being forced to be out.

(54:39 - 55:00)

And actually, there's a kinship in that whole online dating, and no, you haven't necessarily met, but it's not about that physical relation. It is an emotional relationship that someone, to think that someone's able to tap into that and completely manipulate it is just so upsetting. It's so sad.

(55:00 - 55:03)

It's sinister. It is, it is sinister. It's fucking sinister.

(55:04 - 55:14)

It's like, we've covered a lot of shit on this podcast, and we've covered a lot of brutal murder and all the rest of it, but there is something about this trickery, this vindictiveness. It's just so cruel. Yeah.

(55:14 - 55:17)

It's so cruel. That's the word. That is the word.

(55:17 - 55:26)

And that's kind of what I was trying to portray. The money is one thing, and the money's fucking devastating. Losing your life savings, and that's what I mean by losing your future.

(55:27 - 55:46)

That's someone's retirement fund. That's someone's life savings fucking gone. That is devastating, and that makes someone fragile enough, but it's the cruelty of taking that away from someone as well, not just the perceived humiliation.

(55:47 - 55:51)

I don't think these people should be humiliated. No, I don't. Should feel humiliated, sorry.

(55:51 - 56:10)

But just that sense, that loss of safe place, that loss of an avenue that could have given you so much joy, and that, yeah. I just find it staggering. And how do you trust anyone again after that? You don't.

(56:10 - 56:16)

You don't. And it's, this is the thing. I've been very lucky, she says, maybe.

(56:16 - 56:24)

I've never been on the apps. I've mentioned that before. I married Will, found him, decided I wanted him, that was it, done.

(56:24 - 56:27)

So I don't. Pretended to scuba dive. Pretended to scuba dive.

(56:27 - 56:34)

Pretended to really like the band, Meshuggah. Oh, there you go. There we go, forgot their names then.

(56:34 - 56:41)

But yeah, all of that, decided that was it. He's my person, done. So I don't know what it's like to have a relationship online.

(56:42 - 57:13)

So to me, it's a really alien concept, this idea that you meet somebody, you speak to them over what is essentially just texts, and you don't know who they are, and they could be fucking anyone. And the idea, so to me, there's this really weird kind of barrier where I'm like, I wouldn't trust anyone online because I've never had a situation where I've needed to. However, I have trusted people in real life, and I have been 100% taken for a ride.

(57:13 - 57:26)

Taken for a ride. And you know who I'm talking about. But like every moment that you were talking about what he did to them, and the whole thing of the orchestrated silences, and then the love bombing again, and then.

(57:26 - 57:34)

Like, absolutely, what's the word? Oh, bloody hell. It's the blueprint for grooming. Yeah.

(57:35 - 57:39)

It's, and I like, as I was writing it, I was like, fuck. Yeah. I've been groomed.

(57:40 - 57:53)

But it's like, same, mate. Same. Yeah, and I bet, you know, it's, you know, our sexual orientation isn't the only thing that women tend to have, or straight women tend to have in common with gay men.

(57:53 - 58:05)

It is also the fact that we are sexually attracted to monsters. Not all men. Yeah, no, but agreed.

(58:05 - 58:21)

It's like, there was, so yeah, my relationship I had before I met Will, relationship very loosely used. The one you made up, or? Hannah is absolutely adamant that I made up a boyfriend. He didn't exist.

(58:21 - 58:24)

He did not exist, Trevor. He definitely did. He didn't.

(58:24 - 58:28)

He definitely did. You can go and ask my family. He stayed at my house many times.

(58:28 - 58:34)

I'm sure the actor you paid did. Oh dear. Hello, Seb.

(58:35 - 58:39)

So. Or not, because you don't exist. He will not listen.

(58:39 - 58:46)

He is in America, and I am very. Imagine though, if he's listening with like every word, like, oh my God, it's her. Definitely not.

(58:46 - 58:53)

His parents thought that I was far too quaint. Quaint? Quaint, yeah. So basically this boy, very well off.

(58:53 - 59:00)

His parents dropped me home to my house. Oh, it's quaint, front for port. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(59:00 - 59:05)

Not that your house was like, no, oh Jesus, sorry. That's not what I meant at all. But in comparison to them.

(59:05 - 59:12)

Yes, 100%. So I went and spent the weekend with him at his country house. So your mum will hate this episode and I just called her house, poor.

(59:12 - 59:16)

Yes, she did. That's 100% what you did. I'm sorry.

(59:16 - 59:22)

You are not coming back for reef making. Oh God. No, she rocked up.

(59:22 - 59:35)

We'd been at his country house for the weekend. And then she pulled up outside my house in Lewisham and went, is this where you live? I'm not going to do her accent because I can't do an American accent. But she was like, is this where you live? And I was like, yes.

(59:35 - 59:42)

And she went, oh, isn't it quaint? Fucking hell. Okay. Anyway.

(59:42 - 59:51)

But as someone like, I did spend some time on the apps. Yes. And I've been very lucky that, I mean, you know, kissing frogs.

(59:51 - 59:56)

Yeah. But every one of them was the frog as advertised. Yes, fair, fair, fair.

(59:57 - 1:00:04)

And didn't kiss all of them, just to put that out there, mum. This will be the episode. My gran decides to listen to it.

(1:00:04 - 1:00:08)

This will be, yeah, yeah, yeah. I shagged around loads. No.

(1:00:11 - 1:00:24)

Oh, and also hi Richard's dad. Jesus, I've really got to fucking wind my neck in. Anyway, but very lucky that Richard and I met on Hinge and he was completely as advertised.

(1:00:25 - 1:00:28)

Yeah. There was only one picture of him with hair. So I knew what was happening.

(1:00:28 - 1:00:37)

I knew what I was getting myself in for. But I know someone who is currently separated from, like they are divorcing. Yeah.

(1:00:37 - 1:00:50)

And she's, it's been a long enough time now that she's decided, right, I'm going to get back out there. And oh my God, the pictures, like she's, I mean, it's a bit naughty and I'm not, don't get her in trouble, Trevor's. Yeah.

(1:00:50 - 1:01:11)

But like, she will surreptitiously take a photo of the person she's on a date with and send it to the group chat so that we can, we also have her on Find My Friends and stuff like that. Like we have safety procedures, but she'll send a picture like of his profile and then a picture of him in the pub and fuck me, the men lie by about 20 years. Like 20 years and about.

(1:01:11 - 1:01:25)

Yeah, we could all put up a fucking school photo, mate. 20 years and about, and I'm going to say this and you're all going to, because you've all got filthy minds, you're all going to assume I mean something else, but 20 years and about five inches. And I do mean in their height or rotundness.

(1:01:26 - 1:01:29)

Fair, fair. Which would be fine. Why lie? Yeah, exactly.

(1:01:31 - 1:01:35)

Yeah, like it's a minefield out there. Yeah. Like it is wild.

(1:01:35 - 1:01:48)

Yeah, my sister's on them and she says very much the same. I mean, I do find myself like coming home from a girl's evening where we've been chatting about it and going to Richard like, you fucking piss me off, but you're not allowed to go anywhere because I've seen what's out there. I'm happy with my lot.

(1:01:49 - 1:02:01)

I'm not going there again. It's like I- Fuck that noise. I know, I've said to Will that if we were to ever get divorced, which we won't because he knows what Sally's bread's buttered on, but if we were to ever get divorced, I think I'd just be like, no, I'm done.

(1:02:01 - 1:02:06)

No, we've worked this out the other day. Well, yeah, you and I would obviously get married. We would get married.

(1:02:06 - 1:02:10)

Yeah. And we'd move in, I'd move in here. Yeah, fair.

(1:02:10 - 1:02:14)

Like, and then we'd just be each other's life partner. Yeah. All the emotional support.

(1:02:14 - 1:02:16)

Yep. The financial planning. Yep.

(1:02:16 - 1:02:26)

Like everything we would need to have a stable marriage is absolutely solid. We've got those foundations. I have no worries.

(1:02:26 - 1:02:28)

Yeah, yeah. And then we'd just have to get each other ready for dick appointments. Fair.

(1:02:29 - 1:02:37)

Fair, fair, fair, fair, fair. Although to be fair, like, I don't know if it's now just like having two kids, but also that I'm just like, oh, I could get you ready for them. That's fine.

(1:02:37 - 1:02:42)

I'll just sit here. Wait for a couple of- And we're back to me shagging around again. Do me knitting that I can't do.

(1:02:43 - 1:02:48)

Also, what's this? Do knit whilst drumming? Apparently. Okay. With my tiny, tiny drumsticks.

(1:02:48 - 1:03:01)

Anyway. Yeah, no, but what you were saying about the, yeah, no, so it just made me think of Dickhead X because it was 100% like to a T out of that manipulation textbook. Yeah.

(1:03:01 - 1:03:18)

Like love bomb, love bomb, love bomb, make you feel like you're the most important person in the world, shower you with all the attention. And then, I mean, admittedly I was a really stupid 19 year old at the time. So I'm going to blame that for my lack of judgment.

(1:03:19 - 1:03:36)

But yeah, and then it would be like the orchestrated silences. Like I remember he once, he calls me to tell me that he was coming to visit me because he had left, I was at university in Birmingham. He had left Birmingham at that point and was somewhere in the West country.

(1:03:37 - 1:03:44)

And he called me to say he was coming the next day. So I canceled a shift at work. I like did all that.

(1:03:44 - 1:04:02)

I tidied my room. I went to the salon, got a wax, did all of the things that you do when you think you're going to see the man that you are supposedly head over heels for. And then the next day rolls around and nothing, no messages, no.

(1:04:03 - 1:04:19)

And so then you become like that person that you don't ever want to be. But as I'm calling and the phone's off and then suddenly I'm going, oh God, well, what if he was, what if he was hurt? What if he's hurt himself? What if he's, can't get ahold of him, can't get ahold of him, can't get ahold of him. So the amount of phone calls and text messages of just like, I just need to know you're okay.

(1:04:19 - 1:04:25)

It stops being about being pissed off that I've given up a day of work. It stops being about all of that. It starts, it's all about them.

(1:04:25 - 1:04:38)

Are you okay? Are you okay? What do you need? And he did used to constantly be like, oh, I just need like, can I, can I borrow 50 quid? Can I borrow a hundred quid? Can I borrow this? And stupid muggins over here because I was in love. Yeah. Fell for it.

(1:04:38 - 1:04:42)

Every single time. You were manipulated into it. I know, but it was not until.

(1:04:43 - 1:04:53)

No, we have to forgive ourselves for this. It's true. But it's not until those rose colored glasses fall off and they fall off in spectacular fashion when they do, that you kind of go fucking hell.

(1:04:53 - 1:05:01)

You bring your best friend and she's very threatening on the phone to him and you get your money back and you go and buy a new phone with it. That is also true. And that is what happened.

(1:05:01 - 1:05:05)

And this. Don't fucking cross me. This, Trevor, is why everyone needs a Hannah in the house.

(1:05:05 - 1:05:09)

I can be really fucking scary if I want to be. And I will get your money back. You did.

(1:05:09 - 1:05:13)

You did. It was all sorted. And good riddance to the fucktard.

(1:05:13 - 1:05:18)

Anyway. But it was like, it was quite confronting writing this one. I can imagine.

(1:05:20 - 1:05:42)

And I was talking, I was talking to my mom about it and kind of saying, the more, the more I was researching of also like, the more that these things become more in my psyche because we're like researching other cases and like, you'll see something come up about something and you'd be like, whoa, whoa, whoa. And like, I was 14. Yeah.

(1:05:42 - 1:05:53)

When I met my first, in inverted commas, boyfriend online. And he groomed me for 18 months before we actually met. Fuck.

(1:05:53 - 1:06:15)

And even like, even then, even after 18 months of constant, of that like ebb and flow of his attention and the love bombing and the, you know, I used to, and this is really embarrassing, but he used to ring me and we'd have these really long phone conversations. Yeah. Like hours every night.

(1:06:15 - 1:06:31)

I don't even know what we'd talk about. But I would be so worried that if I said I needed to put the phone down for a second to go for a wee, that he wouldn't, that I would lose his attention again and I wouldn't hear from him for a week or whatever. That I used to piss on towels so that it was silent in my bedroom and then hide them.

(1:06:32 - 1:06:52)

Just so that I didn't put the phone down to him because I wouldn't know if I'd hear from him again. And like, that was very indicative of the next three, four years where we were actually, again, in inverted commas, in a relationship where like, I moved out of home at 15. And like, come hell or high water, like there was nothing stopping me.

(1:06:52 - 1:07:02)

And my mom and my dad, my dad was still alive. Like, they couldn't have stopped me even if they tried. And like, I mean, bless my mom, she does have guilt about this.

(1:07:03 - 1:07:08)

But like, I blame dad. He basically said, let her go, she'll come back. Yeah.

(1:07:08 - 1:07:18)

Like, let her go and experience rent and stuff and she'll come back. And I'm, you know, very stubborn. So I didn't for a long time, but I did eventually when I was 19.

(1:07:19 - 1:07:29)

I was like, actually, this is shit and I'm being abused. Can I come home now? And like, obviously my family are wonderful. So it wasn't even a question.

(1:07:29 - 1:07:44)

I didn't ever have to say, can I come home? I just did. But it's that like, I know that feeling of, there's a message. Oh my God.

(1:07:44 - 1:07:50)

Oh my God. Like, and that being on the anxiety and being on Tenderhooks that whole time. Yep.

(1:07:51 - 1:07:57)

Like, and not ever knowing and never, ever knowing the next move. Yeah. Oh mate.

(1:07:57 - 1:08:05)

Yeah, I know. It's, I just don't understand. I understand that like, he was doing it for financial gain.

(1:08:08 - 1:08:25)

But how do you sleep knowing that you're doing that to somebody? That's what I don't get. And I think it's the same with any of the situations, like ours as well. Like, I think back to it and I'm just like, do you have absolutely zero? I don't know.

(1:08:25 - 1:08:40)

I think ours and the DigiCase are different. Yes. In that potentially our scenarios, the, I'm going to call them perpetrators, don't recognize that what they're doing is wrong.

(1:08:41 - 1:08:58)

Or like they, you know, they, they, I don't think it's like an active sitting here in their evil lair going, mwahaha, then I'll do this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's almost like, it's just a pattern of behavior that they've adopted that there's become their nature.

(1:08:59 - 1:09:10)

With Digi, I think potentially from what I've read, but again, you know, who knows? He might fucking speak one day. Yeah. Like during, he's only got eight years, he'll be out in four really, like whatever.

(1:09:11 - 1:09:25)

I think when you add such a severe financial aspect into it, you could probably quell your guilt by saying, you know, they had that money laying around. Yeah. Or like, I was doing it to make ends meet.

(1:09:25 - 1:09:36)

Yeah. I just, it's just one of those things. I think it's like, it's like with the, oh, what was his name? Catch me if you can.

(1:09:37 - 1:09:39)

Mark Ackland. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. The one we did.

(1:09:39 - 1:09:53)

Where like, again, like that was a similar, it was a romance scam. Again, it was just a, he was a con man in real life rather than using the internet. But it is that you can watch these people become attached to you.

(1:09:53 - 1:10:14)

You can watch these people, you know, and especially with like, you know, elderly or older gay men, they are vulnerable in different ways. And it's just, don't fuck with old people. I think I'm not going to insult our parents or your parent a third time by saying 60 years old.

(1:10:17 - 1:10:25)

But don't fuck with old people, it's true. It's like, there is a certain, I think Rachel from All Killers says it. Like, you know, it's just, you just don't do it.

(1:10:25 - 1:10:30)

You don't fuck with the old or the young, like kids and old people. Pick on someone your own size. Exactly.

(1:10:31 - 1:10:52)

And then to also be like, I wonder if there was a reason behind him being on the, like saying that he was a man and looking for gay men. In all honesty, from what I've read, I think it is exploitation of a vulnerability. Like he knew that they would be less likely to tell their families.

(1:10:53 - 1:10:58)

Yeah, and less likely to tell the police, I reckon. Less likely to tell anyone what was going on, really. It's just so sad.

(1:10:59 - 1:11:20)

Anyway, on a lighter note, I will just say for some comic relief that for many, many, many years of my life, I thought the saying to make ends meet was meat, M-E-A-T. And I thought ends meat was something that poor people ate. And that they didn't even have enough money for ends meat.

(1:11:21 - 1:11:34)

I just imagined very gristly beef or something, I don't know. I love that. It's all right, I thought it was tender hooks, not tenter.

It's tenter. Yeah. But I was always like, hook isn't tender.

(1:11:35 - 1:11:39)

I don't understand. Yeah, but what's tenter then? Oh, fuck knows. It's butchery, but anyway.

(1:11:39 - 1:11:49)

Yeah, anyway. Well, thank you for the comic relief. And thank you so much for that episode because genuinely it has sparked so many things going like pew, oh, and that, and that, and that.

(1:11:50 - 1:12:09)

It's just desperately sad and horrible. And I don't think that eight and three years, was it? Were enough? No, no, no. But what can you do? And was there any, I mean, did they say anything about whether any of the money was able to be recovered? It's a bit, it was a bit unclear.

(1:12:09 - 1:12:13)

I think some people's banks were able to help. Right. Others weren't.

(1:12:13 - 1:12:19)

Right, okay. And then there'll be the victim compensation fund, but we all know how fucking brilliant that is. Yeah, exactly.

(1:12:20 - 1:12:26)

So. Yeah, who knows? Who knows? Oh, but yeah, thank you again. That was a great episode.

(1:12:26 - 1:12:32)

I very much enjoyed listening to you. You're welcome. So I suppose that just leaves us with all the nice bits.

(1:12:32 - 1:12:38)

Indeed it does. Do you wanna play mother? We have a website. We do.

(1:12:38 - 1:12:48)

It's sinisterselfpod.com. No. It's sinisterselfpod.co.uk. Yes. We have an email address that is sinisterselfpodcast at gmail.com. Yes.

(1:12:48 - 1:12:56)

We have an Instagram where apparently I'm going to be allowed to be featured at one point. Oh my God. And that is sinisterselfpod, same with TikTok.

(1:12:57 - 1:13:05)

Yeah. We have the Facebook group run by the sometimes lovely, sometimes not Lou, which is Trevor's Unite. Yep.

(1:13:07 - 1:13:13)

Patreon, we've got a bloody Patreon. We've got a Patreon. And that happens.

(1:13:13 - 1:13:30)

And we've decided what we're gonna do for the second episode for those of you that are lovely enough to pay over whatever the amount was, 10 pounds. We've decided what we're gonna do with it and I think it's brilliant and I can't wait to deliver it for you. We shall be doing some recordings of those very soon.

(1:13:30 - 1:13:42)

And there will also, as promised, will be the Patreon shout out thing. I'm just working out. I'm just trying to do my best three bean salad impression and work out how to make it funny.

(1:13:43 - 1:13:46)

She's doing well. She's doing well. It will more than likely be in the next one.

(1:13:46 - 1:13:56)

Did we also, I think it's, we've done the whole thing about the badges and the poll, haven't we? But I don't think we've actually done it on Instagram. We've said it. I don't think it's actually been done yet.

(1:13:56 - 1:14:01)

We should put that out then. That's something we should do. We're really on top of everything, Trevor, as we promised.

(1:14:01 - 1:14:05)

It's fine. We're really organised. Don't abandon us, please.

(1:14:06 - 1:14:09)

Cool. All right then. Well, I suppose that's all there is.

(1:14:09 - 1:14:14)

That is all there is. And you don't look so panicked. It's okay.

(1:14:14 - 1:14:18)

That's all there is. I've got nothing left. We'll see you next week.

(1:14:18 - 1:14:20)

See you next week, Trevs. We love you. Love you.

(1:14:20 - 1:14:21)

Bye-bye. Bye.